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[Applause]

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well as a christian i guess that it

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would be easy for you to recite the

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lord's prayer

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is that what we're resorting to here

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gestapo tactics

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i would like to hear that would you like

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you're hurting man fine i'm happy to our

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father

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art who is up in heaven aloe vera be thy

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name

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forgive us for trespassing and

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do not lead us to the temptations

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because we

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are tired of them and they're dancing

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and deliver us

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from evil with your mighty sword and

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falcon

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forever and ever and ever amen

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[Applause]

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that's zach gelfinakis and of course

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will ferrell in the movie the campaign

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and you know actually my favorite part

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of that clip but i wasn't able to get it

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comes right

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after that when the crowd of kind of

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stereotyped bible belt christians

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is booing because he doesn't know the

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lord's prayer and pharaoh protests and

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says

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i got the gist of it and i've been

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working through these shows on

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christianity and judaism and social

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engineering by the romans

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and i have to wonder to myself am i

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maybe making too big of a deal

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about this because at the end of the day

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i do kind of feel like christians do

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get the gist of it right

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i mean it's all about love and light and

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forgiveness and compassion

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and for the modern liberal mainstream

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protestant

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in america that is what jesus is all

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about that's what his message is all

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about that's what christ consciousness

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is all about

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so what's the big deal they got the gist

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of it right

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so and i've kind of said this before but

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i'll say it again

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i'm trying to go past that i'm

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acknowledging that

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i'm acknowledging how awesome that is

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especially in the context of a society

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we have that basically denies

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spirituality at every turn either

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through science or through

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wink and not hollywood luciferian

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satanism

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whatever that thing is so where i'm

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trying to go

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is the next level of saying

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okay what's beyond the

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gist of it if we were going to

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try and get to some kind of factual

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thing

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like i say and i know that's slippery

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and tricky what would we leave in what

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would we throw out

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now none of that would be a problem as

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you'll hear

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for today's most excellent guest

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matt whitman and i have to stress and

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this is just straight up the truth

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i can't tell you how far matt

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stands above so many of the biblical

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scholars religious scholars

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comparative religion professors all that

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stuff you know i've talked to a ton of

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those people

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matt stands head and shoulders above

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them

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in terms of standing up and dealing with

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the data and sorting through it and

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being able to push back with a

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well-reasoned supported argument of his

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position

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so i'm going to play a couple of

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relatively long

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clips from this interview because the

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interview is

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very long and goes a lot of different

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places and i want

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to give you at least as will farrell

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says

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the gist of it what do you think the

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chances are that the gospel writers had

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access to

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josephus uh i think

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100 that luke had access to at least the

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early publications of josephus

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i don't think mark had access i think he

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wrote earlier than that

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and drew his details from peter we've

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got a ton of historical evidence and

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tradition that points to mark

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just writing down peter's teachings in

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rome i think you'd have a tough time

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making a case that mark drew

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anything there uh john i think may have

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wrote uh an early edition

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and then some questions were left

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lingering and maybe he came back

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later to round things out answering the

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question of what happened with peter

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things like that in that final chapter

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so john

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would have had access at least by the

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time we get to the finished version of

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john

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and maybe there is no finished version

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maybe it was all just one version i

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don't know i'm just speculating

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matthew there's more debate about the

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early church father who lived

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in close proximity papias suggests that

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matthew was actually the first to write

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his gospel modern scholarship

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supposes that mark wrote first but

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if that's the case then matthew if

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papias is right

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matthew didn't have access to josephus

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because josephus was still wet behind

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the ears and a kid

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and hadn't published anything when

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matthew was doing the bulk of his work

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if we go with the more traditional

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slightly later date for matthew

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he would have barely had access to

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josephus and if we go with the much more

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uh skeptical and traditionally it's

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called the more liberal read

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on the dating of matthew than he would

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have had access

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so sure i think they had access

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i just don't see the correspondence

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happening to such a degree that that

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it's

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in any way historically compelling are

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you at all

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surprised curious about the bible being

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as pro-roman as it is

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those are those the fingerprints of

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josephus no

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i'm well maybe i have to say maybe again

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because i didn't write this i don't know

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but based on what i see

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the the orientation one strategy for how

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to deal with rome in the situation at

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hand amongst jews

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amongst gentiles amongst hellenizers

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amongst

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christians

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was play along use the roman

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infrastructure

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play along and don't pick a fight

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because you're going to lose the fight

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now there are people i completely agree

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with right now who

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um or completely disagree with right now

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who look at the situation in american

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government

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or the situation in people

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cracking down on any kind of creative

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speech on the internet

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and maybe for completely different

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reasons we would say i don't like that

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and i want to push back on that but

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right now it would be best

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to appease so i won't crack this joke

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i won't deal with that subject matter

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i'm not looking to jab that bear and

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pick a fight now we might not know each

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other we might not influence each other

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but if we're both people of common sense

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we might look at the same playing field

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and say this is probably the right way

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to play it at the moment

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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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i'm your host alex secaris and today we

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welcome

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matt whitman to skeptico matt is the

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creator

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and host of the very excellent

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10 minute bible hour which he says

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is the bible without the sermon um

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which is really quite an amazing show he

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also has a podcast

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of the same name and he has a very

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excellent youtube channel that you can

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check out

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all kind of the same way he he does a

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great job he's a great

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presenter and he also

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produces some really high quality

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content about

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i guess the expanded version of what

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you'd expect from a bible hour i mean he

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does deep dives into apologetics

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he has some pretty amazing interviews

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and i was just complimenting him

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which anyone will see that it's not just

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kind of uh

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idle uh fluffing up the guest i mean the

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high quality content

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and the production value that he puts

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into this is

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pretty impressive so we're going to have

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a conversation today

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and i'm really really appreciative that

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uh

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matt who's coming from a christian

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perspective used to be a pastor

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is willing to engage in this dialogue

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ongoing dialogue we've been having

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about kind of next level spirituality

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so matt welcome to skeptic co thanks so

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much for joining me

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yeah i'm honored thanks for letting me

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hang out with you alex and i gotta say

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that was a really crisp intro nice job

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man i can tell you've been doing this

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for a while

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wow honored i love when people say that

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they're

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honored to be on skeptical i never know

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quite what to make of that

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so i'll tell you what before we get too

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chummy here well you know what can i

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tell you can i tell you what to make of

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it when i say it

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it means that i'm about to sit and talk

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with somebody i get to unwrap a present

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here because i don't know you

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we we didn't workshop all of this in

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advance to get all our answers straight

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and make everything

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just super tidy and crispy so so i'm

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unwrapping a present here as i get to

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learn more about the the mindset

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and how ideas and experiences have

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shaped how you come at things how you

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wrestle with an idea

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it feels like we're on a tennis court

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and we got a ball labeled ideas

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and you're about to put it in play and

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we're about to bounce it back and forth

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and

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anybody who's willing to

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sit and really process through an idea

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is automatically my friend so thank you

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totally get that

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and totally feel the same way in a very

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very deep way because

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you know it's funny i was just thinking

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of this before we started because

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in these discussions you always have to

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kind of stake out your position if

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nothing else so that the audience can

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understand gee

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why are you having a guy who does a

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former pastor

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could be a pastor tomorrow for all you

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know has the degree in divinity

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has all those qualifications and then it

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is doing christian apologetics

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you know why is he coming on your show

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to speak to an audience who's primarily

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spiritual but not religious and somewhat

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00:10:00,310 --> 00:09:59,360
not down on the christian kind of

285
00:10:02,310 --> 00:10:00,320
version of things

286
00:10:03,509 --> 00:10:02,320
and i kind of see it the other way i

287
00:10:06,470 --> 00:10:03,519
kind of see it as

288
00:10:07,110 --> 00:10:06,480
wow you know anyone who's digging into

289
00:10:09,910 --> 00:10:07,120
this stuff

290
00:10:11,190 --> 00:10:09,920
at the level that you are like you know

291
00:10:13,829 --> 00:10:11,200
i just pulled up in the screen

292
00:10:14,949 --> 00:10:13,839
who is pontius pilate historical proofs

293
00:10:18,150 --> 00:10:14,959
and legends

294
00:10:19,030 --> 00:10:18,160
you know a hundred thousand view uh 20

295
00:10:21,509 --> 00:10:19,040
30 minute no

296
00:10:22,389 --> 00:10:21,519
one hour and 10 minute video on youtube

297
00:10:24,389 --> 00:10:22,399
with it has

298
00:10:26,310 --> 00:10:24,399
as i pulled up on the screen oh here's a

299
00:10:30,389 --> 00:10:26,320
guy who went to rome and is

300
00:10:32,310 --> 00:10:30,399
videotaping himself in front of the

301
00:10:33,430 --> 00:10:32,320
archaeological evidence that pontius

302
00:10:35,110 --> 00:10:33,440
pilate existed

303
00:10:37,190 --> 00:10:35,120
here's somebody's dug through and found

304
00:10:38,470 --> 00:10:37,200
the coins that proved that pontius

305
00:10:41,590 --> 00:10:38,480
pilate existed

306
00:10:43,990 --> 00:10:41,600
so there's just a lot going on there in

307
00:10:46,550 --> 00:10:44,000
terms of someone who truly is seeking

308
00:10:47,430 --> 00:10:46,560
at that next level which i am too in a

309
00:10:49,509 --> 00:10:47,440
different way

310
00:10:50,630 --> 00:10:49,519
but as you just said and i think there's

311
00:10:54,310 --> 00:10:50,640
a lot to that

312
00:10:57,430 --> 00:10:54,320
hats off to someone who is seeking

313
00:10:59,750 --> 00:10:57,440
in a way that already says your mind

314
00:11:03,509 --> 00:10:59,760
can't be totally made up

315
00:11:05,350 --> 00:11:03,519
my mind is not totally made up like

316
00:11:07,110 --> 00:11:05,360
i might come through this and i might go

317
00:11:09,430 --> 00:11:07,120
oh you know what

318
00:11:10,550 --> 00:11:09,440
everything i thought i knew is a little

319
00:11:13,350 --> 00:11:10,560
bit off because

320
00:11:15,750 --> 00:11:13,360
matt changed my world that is exciting

321
00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:15,760
that's why i continue to do this

322
00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:18,640
and you know bro that's why it is super

323
00:11:20,870 --> 00:11:19,120
fun

324
00:11:22,470 --> 00:11:20,880
to talk to you i feel like it's going to

325
00:11:23,990 --> 00:11:22,480
be a good thing hey so

326
00:11:25,829 --> 00:11:24,000
tell us tell folks a little bit more i

327
00:11:29,110 --> 00:11:25,839
give a very brief bio

328
00:11:30,310 --> 00:11:29,120
you know who is matt whitman and how did

329
00:11:33,030 --> 00:11:30,320
you reach

330
00:11:34,630 --> 00:11:33,040
this point in this whole thing that

331
00:11:35,910 --> 00:11:34,640
you're doing

332
00:11:38,790 --> 00:11:35,920
what an awesome way to get the ball

333
00:11:42,069 --> 00:11:38,800
rolling that's a great question

334
00:11:43,350 --> 00:11:42,079
i'm weird i know on paper what people

335
00:11:45,350 --> 00:11:43,360
are going to expect

336
00:11:46,870 --> 00:11:45,360
is someone who probably holds a certain

337
00:11:49,910 --> 00:11:46,880
set of political views

338
00:11:51,350 --> 00:11:49,920
a certain set of social views and the

339
00:11:53,269 --> 00:11:51,360
only part of the introduction

340
00:11:55,509 --> 00:11:53,279
that in a friendly way i would push back

341
00:11:57,670 --> 00:11:55,519
on would be the term apologist

342
00:11:58,790 --> 00:11:57,680
i i always get lumped in with those

343
00:12:00,710 --> 00:11:58,800
crowds

344
00:12:02,069 --> 00:12:00,720
i get invited to things but i just don't

345
00:12:04,710 --> 00:12:02,079
think i am

346
00:12:06,150 --> 00:12:04,720
i think what i am is trying to do eyes

347
00:12:08,230 --> 00:12:06,160
wide open faith

348
00:12:09,269 --> 00:12:08,240
so my dad is a first generation

349
00:12:12,069 --> 00:12:09,279
christian

350
00:12:13,990 --> 00:12:12,079
and a baptist pastor he was part of a

351
00:12:17,190 --> 00:12:14,000
mainline baptist denomination

352
00:12:18,389 --> 00:12:17,200
growing up uh mainline meaning you know

353
00:12:20,389 --> 00:12:18,399
at this point

354
00:12:21,590 --> 00:12:20,399
that group would lean a little bit more

355
00:12:23,430 --> 00:12:21,600
left politically

356
00:12:25,350 --> 00:12:23,440
ranging from a little bit left to really

357
00:12:27,190 --> 00:12:25,360
really hard left progressive would be

358
00:12:29,990 --> 00:12:27,200
your main line churches

359
00:12:31,670 --> 00:12:30,000
um he found that unsatisfactory and

360
00:12:35,269 --> 00:12:31,680
gravitated toward

361
00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:35,279
a more conservative traditional baptist

362
00:12:38,629 --> 00:12:37,040
church for the remainder of his career

363
00:12:40,629 --> 00:12:38,639
after i was out of the house

364
00:12:41,829 --> 00:12:40,639
so that was my experience i watched him

365
00:12:43,590 --> 00:12:41,839
go to seminary

366
00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:43,600
i watched him go through several

367
00:12:47,030 --> 00:12:45,360
iterations of

368
00:12:49,590 --> 00:12:47,040
faith and understanding about the

369
00:12:54,470 --> 00:12:49,600
miraculous the divine all of that

370
00:12:58,389 --> 00:12:57,829
my uh my my upbringing then was an idea

371
00:13:00,310 --> 00:12:58,399
upbringing

372
00:13:02,310 --> 00:13:00,320
okay everybody teaches their kid the

373
00:13:04,629 --> 00:13:02,320
family business one way or another

374
00:13:06,069 --> 00:13:04,639
and my dad's business was ideas it still

375
00:13:08,949 --> 00:13:06,079
is i mean he's just

376
00:13:09,829 --> 00:13:08,959
brilliant brilliant man and so yeah we'd

377
00:13:11,350 --> 00:13:09,839
stay up till

378
00:13:12,629 --> 00:13:11,360
two in the morning every night school

379
00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:12,639
nights and everything and we would

380
00:13:16,710 --> 00:13:13,680
workshop

381
00:13:18,629 --> 00:13:16,720
ideas what's on the news what

382
00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:18,639
that point in church history or scholar

383
00:13:21,430 --> 00:13:20,240
philosopher thought this and what do we

384
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:21,440
do with it

385
00:13:24,870 --> 00:13:23,279
and that's what we did and you know dad

386
00:13:26,550 --> 00:13:24,880
didn't do much in terms of teaching me

387
00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:26,560
how to turn a wrench that was mostly mom

388
00:13:29,110 --> 00:13:27,600
who taught me how to

389
00:13:32,069 --> 00:13:29,120
do things with my hands and fix stuff

390
00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:32,079
which i really enjoy as well

391
00:13:36,069 --> 00:13:34,320
but dad taught me about the world of

392
00:13:37,670 --> 00:13:36,079
ideas where most dads teach their kids

393
00:13:38,629 --> 00:13:37,680
how to fish i learned that one on my own

394
00:13:46,870 --> 00:13:38,639
and

395
00:13:49,670 --> 00:13:46,880
did a great job

396
00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:49,680
of conditioning me to do eyes wide open

397
00:13:54,350 --> 00:13:50,480
faith

398
00:13:56,949 --> 00:13:54,360
i was raised around that i went to a

399
00:13:58,550 --> 00:13:56,959
pentecostal-ish christian high school

400
00:13:59,750 --> 00:13:58,560
where my mom got a job as a music

401
00:14:03,350 --> 00:13:59,760
teacher that's the only reason

402
00:14:06,389 --> 00:14:03,360
i went there the dominant

403
00:14:07,030 --> 00:14:06,399
theology of that high school was very

404
00:14:10,470 --> 00:14:07,040
much

405
00:14:11,509 --> 00:14:10,480
what now looks more like your health and

406
00:14:15,189 --> 00:14:11,519
wealth

407
00:14:19,030 --> 00:14:15,199
gospel your joel osteen tv preacher

408
00:14:21,110 --> 00:14:19,040
here's a very uh nebulous miraculous

409
00:14:23,030 --> 00:14:21,120
claim about having an idea in your head

410
00:14:26,310 --> 00:14:23,040
that you say is from god

411
00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:26,320
or being able to do inco inconsequential

412
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:27,040
and not

413
00:14:30,949 --> 00:14:29,279
verbal miraculous things that didn't

414
00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:30,959
move the needle for me as a kid

415
00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:33,760
and bred a lot of skepticism for me not

416
00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:34,880
about

417
00:14:42,310 --> 00:14:40,800
miraculous claims stuff on the fringe it

418
00:14:43,990 --> 00:14:42,320
just didn't

419
00:14:45,829 --> 00:14:44,000
it didn't square with the reason that i

420
00:14:49,189 --> 00:14:45,839
was getting taught at home

421
00:14:51,590 --> 00:14:49,199
so i get out of that school situation

422
00:14:53,189 --> 00:14:51,600
i went to law school that was my plan be

423
00:14:54,949 --> 00:14:53,199
a lawyer do political stuff my kid

424
00:14:55,910 --> 00:14:54,959
brother got killed in a car wreck which

425
00:14:57,590 --> 00:14:55,920
just sucked

426
00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:57,600
he was awesome now i don't have a

427
00:15:00,310 --> 00:14:59,440
brother i loved having a brother i miss

428
00:15:04,069 --> 00:15:00,320
him

429
00:15:06,150 --> 00:15:04,079
and dad had trouble making church work

430
00:15:07,189 --> 00:15:06,160
not because his faith fell apart not not

431
00:15:10,069 --> 00:15:07,199
at all his

432
00:15:11,189 --> 00:15:10,079
faith was bolstered by that tragedy but

433
00:15:13,990 --> 00:15:11,199
he was just sad because

434
00:15:15,829 --> 00:15:14,000
his kid died and you know all beliefs

435
00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:15,839
and politics and everything else aside i

436
00:15:18,550 --> 00:15:16,480
think it's just

437
00:15:21,910 --> 00:15:18,560
very easy for any human to be empathetic

438
00:15:24,230 --> 00:15:21,920
to a dad who lost his baby boy and

439
00:15:24,949 --> 00:15:24,240
had his heart broken and so it's pretty

440
00:15:26,470 --> 00:15:24,959
tough to

441
00:15:29,749 --> 00:15:26,480
muster creative energy when you're in

442
00:15:31,509 --> 00:15:29,759
that place so i moved home from

443
00:15:33,509 --> 00:15:31,519
law school and i jumped in with dad and

444
00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:33,519
i helped cover the bases i had like a

445
00:15:36,389 --> 00:15:34,000
minor

446
00:15:38,069 --> 00:15:36,399
in biblical studies at that point my

447
00:15:40,150 --> 00:15:38,079
undergrad degrees were history

448
00:15:42,470 --> 00:15:40,160
philosophy that kind of business

449
00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:42,480
so so i helped out i'm not sure i was

450
00:15:44,710 --> 00:15:44,160
any good at it but i helped cover those

451
00:15:47,509 --> 00:15:44,720
bases

452
00:15:48,949 --> 00:15:47,519
and was around church a little bit did

453
00:15:50,470 --> 00:15:48,959
one more round of that

454
00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:50,480
thought i better understand this a

455
00:15:55,030 --> 00:15:52,480
little bit more because i got some real

456
00:15:58,230 --> 00:15:55,040
questions here so i went to seminary

457
00:15:59,590 --> 00:15:58,240
um a good seminary one i probably didn't

458
00:16:00,550 --> 00:15:59,600
have any business being at i was

459
00:16:02,870 --> 00:16:00,560
definitely

460
00:16:04,230 --> 00:16:02,880
bringing down the average scholarly

461
00:16:07,189 --> 00:16:04,240
ability level of that place

462
00:16:11,430 --> 00:16:07,199
i went to i went to trinity in chicago

463
00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:12,870
that's where a lot of things really

464
00:16:18,230 --> 00:16:14,800
clicked being around

465
00:16:20,629 --> 00:16:18,240
that historical academic

466
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:20,639
christian tradition where the bottom

467
00:16:25,269 --> 00:16:22,240
line of every class was not

468
00:16:25,829 --> 00:16:25,279
believe it more be better behaved vote

469
00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:25,839
this way

470
00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:28,000
and just none of that came up the bottom

471
00:16:33,509 --> 00:16:30,720
line of everything was

472
00:16:34,310 --> 00:16:33,519
be a better scholar have more eyes wide

473
00:16:36,470 --> 00:16:34,320
open faith

474
00:16:37,350 --> 00:16:36,480
or not faith if that's where you end up

475
00:16:39,430 --> 00:16:37,360
and that stuck

476
00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:39,440
that was that was the thing that really

477
00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:41,040
stuck was the okay

478
00:16:45,110 --> 00:16:43,360
i've now seen what it looks like to have

479
00:16:47,749 --> 00:16:45,120
modeled for me

480
00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:47,759
academically honest eyes wide open faith

481
00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:48,480
with

482
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:50,320
varying degrees of an understanding of a

483
00:16:53,829 --> 00:16:52,000
threshold of belief

484
00:16:56,230 --> 00:16:53,839
on this issue or that issue and i felt

485
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:56,240
like i had permission at that point

486
00:17:01,430 --> 00:16:59,759
to to find my tribe and think really

487
00:17:03,509 --> 00:17:01,440
honestly about this stuff

488
00:17:05,669 --> 00:17:03,519
and and not worry about letting people

489
00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:05,679
down i took another church

490
00:17:10,470 --> 00:17:08,640
after my first graduate degree that went

491
00:17:12,549 --> 00:17:10,480
very very badly it was the exact

492
00:17:14,789 --> 00:17:12,559
opposite of what i experienced

493
00:17:15,669 --> 00:17:14,799
at seminary in that rich academic

494
00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:15,679
setting

495
00:17:20,710 --> 00:17:18,959
and i remember driving away from that

496
00:17:24,630 --> 00:17:20,720
awful experience at church

497
00:17:26,870 --> 00:17:24,640
with my brand new baby girl

498
00:17:28,950 --> 00:17:26,880
uh moving van full of stuff i quit with

499
00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:28,960
no job i quit on principle i can't do

500
00:17:32,789 --> 00:17:29,919
this

501
00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:32,799
we always had a deal we're not um we're

502
00:17:35,909 --> 00:17:34,640
not going to lie to ourselves about god

503
00:17:37,830 --> 00:17:35,919
we're not going to lie to ourselves

504
00:17:38,870 --> 00:17:37,840
about bible things and miraculous things

505
00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:38,880
if we believe it

506
00:17:43,350 --> 00:17:41,760
and it's stupid okay at least it's

507
00:17:44,950 --> 00:17:43,360
honest but we're not going to say we

508
00:17:47,909 --> 00:17:44,960
think things we don't think

509
00:17:49,350 --> 00:17:47,919
that destroys your soul so we quit with

510
00:17:51,190 --> 00:17:49,360
no job i left

511
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:51,200
i moved to live in a friend's guest

512
00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:52,960
bedroom in nebraska

513
00:17:56,310 --> 00:17:55,120
with no plan and no money and a wife and

514
00:17:58,070 --> 00:17:56,320
a baby girl

515
00:18:00,150 --> 00:17:58,080
and i think around grand junction

516
00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:00,160
colorado for the first time

517
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:03,280
ever it occurred to me and what if

518
00:18:06,789 --> 00:18:04,640
there's just not a god at all

519
00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:06,799
like what if every last bit of this is

520
00:18:11,590 --> 00:18:09,360
wrong and my dad's a great guy

521
00:18:12,950 --> 00:18:11,600
and other religious people i've known

522
00:18:16,150 --> 00:18:12,960
are lovely

523
00:18:17,909 --> 00:18:16,160
people but what if it's just a coping

524
00:18:20,310 --> 00:18:17,919
mechanism for

525
00:18:21,110 --> 00:18:20,320
dealing with death and what looks like

526
00:18:25,270 --> 00:18:21,120
the complete

527
00:18:28,470 --> 00:18:25,280
chaos of the story of history and ideas

528
00:18:28,870 --> 00:18:28,480
i started bawling man i in the moving

529
00:18:33,909 --> 00:18:28,880
van

530
00:18:35,830 --> 00:18:33,919
i i was it was very very painful to even

531
00:18:37,029 --> 00:18:35,840
not entertain the idea academically i'd

532
00:18:40,230 --> 00:18:37,039
done that

533
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:40,240
but to entertain the idea in a way that

534
00:18:43,990 --> 00:18:41,440
i would allow myself

535
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:44,000
to just go where the evidence leads and

536
00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:44,960
the whole thing broke

537
00:18:49,590 --> 00:18:48,000
and it just did for um

538
00:18:51,150 --> 00:18:49,600
really a pretty significant chunk of

539
00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:51,160
time and

540
00:18:57,110 --> 00:18:53,360
[Music]

541
00:18:57,750 --> 00:18:57,120
ultimately it was deconstructing a bunch

542
00:18:59,350 --> 00:18:57,760
of that

543
00:19:00,950 --> 00:18:59,360
i think pretty indefensible

544
00:19:02,950 --> 00:19:00,960
unsustainable

545
00:19:04,630 --> 00:19:02,960
kid faith that i had brought with me

546
00:19:06,950 --> 00:19:04,640
without re-examining

547
00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:06,960
into adulthood and parenthood that it

548
00:19:09,750 --> 00:19:08,320
just wasn't sustainable it wasn't going

549
00:19:12,549 --> 00:19:09,760
to work those ideas

550
00:19:13,510 --> 00:19:12,559
are incompatible with these other ideas

551
00:19:17,110 --> 00:19:13,520
and

552
00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:17,120
so that youth group evangelical

553
00:19:23,669 --> 00:19:20,400
light sort of intentionally

554
00:19:25,750 --> 00:19:23,679
skeptical of deep thought

555
00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:25,760
and the intellectual side of

556
00:19:29,190 --> 00:19:27,200
christianity version

557
00:19:31,510 --> 00:19:29,200
of christianity that they're really

558
00:19:33,430 --> 00:19:31,520
heavily focused on altering a few

559
00:19:36,390 --> 00:19:33,440
behaviors in young people

560
00:19:37,990 --> 00:19:36,400
it just broke and with it broke my

561
00:19:40,789 --> 00:19:38,000
belief that there was any kind of deity

562
00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:40,799
or order to anything at all and this is

563
00:19:46,150 --> 00:19:42,000
after i'm

564
00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:46,160
i've worked with

565
00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:48,080
thousands of people and tried to help

566
00:19:50,630 --> 00:19:49,280
them out and

567
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:50,640
look i know there are people sitting on

568
00:19:55,669 --> 00:19:52,960
this conversation alex who are like

569
00:19:57,029 --> 00:19:55,679
well serves you right jackass i mean you

570
00:19:58,950 --> 00:19:57,039
go and you tell people a bunch of things

571
00:20:00,390 --> 00:19:58,960
that are dead wrong i'm glad you had to

572
00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:00,400
feel the sting of that

573
00:20:04,310 --> 00:20:02,720
but i would you know to my to my friends

574
00:20:05,669 --> 00:20:04,320
who i don't know yet on the internet who

575
00:20:07,669 --> 00:20:05,679
are maybe

576
00:20:09,350 --> 00:20:07,679
going there in your head i would ask for

577
00:20:11,350 --> 00:20:09,360
grace on that

578
00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:11,360
like you're doing your best i was doing

579
00:20:14,310 --> 00:20:12,480
my best

580
00:20:15,830 --> 00:20:14,320
you get served up once you get served up

581
00:20:17,430 --> 00:20:15,840
you do your best to sort it through and

582
00:20:19,909 --> 00:20:17,440
it would be fun wouldn't it

583
00:20:21,590 --> 00:20:19,919
if we could just thanos snap and all of

584
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:21,600
our ideas and all of that data could

585
00:20:24,789 --> 00:20:23,760
just be processed in one lightning fast

586
00:20:26,470 --> 00:20:24,799
buffer bar

587
00:20:27,990 --> 00:20:26,480
and all of it comes into fruition and

588
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:28,000
like right there in front of you like

589
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:28,559
there

590
00:20:33,110 --> 00:20:31,440
now i'm on build 8.1 of my faith and my

591
00:20:34,149 --> 00:20:33,120
understanding of the world and ideas and

592
00:20:35,909 --> 00:20:34,159
philosophy

593
00:20:38,950 --> 00:20:35,919
and my ethic of other people and

594
00:20:41,590 --> 00:20:38,960
politics but the buffer bar is slow

595
00:20:43,430 --> 00:20:41,600
there's a lot of complex calculations

596
00:20:45,190 --> 00:20:43,440
that go into it

597
00:20:47,029 --> 00:20:45,200
and i don't want to wait until i have

598
00:20:49,830 --> 00:20:47,039
everything figured out to try to

599
00:20:51,350 --> 00:20:49,840
be redemptive and help people and so i i

600
00:20:53,990 --> 00:20:51,360
don't regret

601
00:20:55,909 --> 00:20:54,000
how i came at it during those first 10

602
00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:55,919
years of adulthood before i got into

603
00:20:59,830 --> 00:20:56,880
this

604
00:21:01,590 --> 00:20:59,840
crisis of faith or period of disbelief i

605
00:21:03,990 --> 00:21:01,600
would call it the latter

606
00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:04,000
um i tried to teach him intellectual

607
00:21:07,830 --> 00:21:05,520
honesty i tried to model

608
00:21:08,870 --> 00:21:07,840
intellectual honesty and i didn't get

609
00:21:12,310 --> 00:21:08,880
everything right

610
00:21:14,390 --> 00:21:12,320
and i don't know that's okay but what if

611
00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:14,400
i'd done nothing for those 10 years

612
00:21:18,310 --> 00:21:16,080
i hadn't helped anybody and i just sat

613
00:21:20,070 --> 00:21:18,320
in my little tower and thought thoughts

614
00:21:22,870 --> 00:21:20,080
well i don't want to be that guy either

615
00:21:24,630 --> 00:21:22,880
i want to i want to try to be redemptive

616
00:21:26,149 --> 00:21:24,640
as well as i understand redemptive at

617
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:26,159
any given moment

618
00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:27,760
so then i know this is a long answer and

619
00:21:31,669 --> 00:21:29,440
thank you for even being

620
00:21:33,110 --> 00:21:31,679
oh this is an awesome this is an awesome

621
00:21:35,669 --> 00:21:33,120
story i'm loving every bit of it

622
00:21:36,149 --> 00:21:35,679
so cool man you built it up now man you

623
00:21:38,149 --> 00:21:36,159
you

624
00:21:39,590 --> 00:21:38,159
this is act 3 or act 2 i don't know how

625
00:21:43,350 --> 00:21:39,600
they do those things okay

626
00:21:49,510 --> 00:21:46,470
so i come back around um

627
00:21:51,029 --> 00:21:49,520
my earnest lived experience

628
00:21:53,430 --> 00:21:51,039
which i'm sure people will express

629
00:21:56,549 --> 00:21:53,440
skepticism toward and that's fine

630
00:21:58,470 --> 00:21:56,559
is i was really sure there was a god

631
00:21:59,590 --> 00:21:58,480
i was absolutely positive there was not

632
00:22:01,990 --> 00:21:59,600
a god

633
00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:02,000
and then gradually i began to think

634
00:22:07,270 --> 00:22:04,000
about that in different categories

635
00:22:08,710 --> 00:22:07,280
to a place where yeah i

636
00:22:10,549 --> 00:22:08,720
i think there's something behind all of

637
00:22:13,350 --> 00:22:10,559
this i don't think it just happened

638
00:22:15,190 --> 00:22:13,360
i am with aristotle in thinking that

639
00:22:17,110 --> 00:22:15,200
there is a first cause

640
00:22:19,270 --> 00:22:17,120
there is some originating force and that

641
00:22:21,110 --> 00:22:19,280
i think you can reason out from there

642
00:22:22,470 --> 00:22:21,120
to at least a basic framework of what

643
00:22:25,750 --> 00:22:22,480
the attributes

644
00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:25,760
and skill set of that originating cause

645
00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:27,760
can't be

646
00:22:34,310 --> 00:22:31,120
could be and maybe even must be so i

647
00:22:35,029 --> 00:22:34,320
i i have gotten to my place of faith in

648
00:22:49,430 --> 00:22:35,039
a

649
00:22:52,230 --> 00:22:49,440
honest

650
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:52,240
i cannot process this in a way where my

651
00:22:55,350 --> 00:22:53,600
primary concern

652
00:22:56,630 --> 00:22:55,360
is someone else might hear one little

653
00:22:59,110 --> 00:22:56,640
fragment of it

654
00:23:00,710 --> 00:22:59,120
and the spell might be broken for them

655
00:23:03,750 --> 00:23:00,720
and they might feel sad

656
00:23:07,350 --> 00:23:03,760
and go through a bad process of doubt

657
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:07,360
doubt is faith faith is doubt so

658
00:23:10,630 --> 00:23:09,600
eyes wide open faith absolutely hard

659
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:10,640
ground rule

660
00:23:14,710 --> 00:23:12,320
go where the evidence points go where

661
00:23:16,470 --> 00:23:14,720
the data points and so the most probably

662
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:16,480
the most hurtful thing that i hear from

663
00:23:19,750 --> 00:23:17,039
people

664
00:23:20,950 --> 00:23:19,760
in the history of my internetting and

665
00:23:23,029 --> 00:23:20,960
now i'm going to tell everybody how they

666
00:23:26,310 --> 00:23:23,039
can make me feel sad if they want to

667
00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:26,320
but it's it's the charge

668
00:23:29,990 --> 00:23:28,400
in the comment section and the angry

669
00:23:31,590 --> 00:23:30,000
email most of which doesn't get through

670
00:23:32,950 --> 00:23:31,600
the armor at all you know i get a

671
00:23:35,029 --> 00:23:32,960
jillion things like that every day

672
00:23:35,990 --> 00:23:35,039
whatever but there's one that gets

673
00:23:39,430 --> 00:23:36,000
through the armor and it's

674
00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:39,440
the uh the accusation of dishonesty

675
00:23:43,269 --> 00:23:42,400
because it's it's not true but it's just

676
00:23:45,190 --> 00:23:43,279
it's not true

677
00:23:46,549 --> 00:23:45,200
now the accusation of incompetence i can

678
00:23:49,990 --> 00:23:46,559
handle better

679
00:23:51,590 --> 00:23:50,000
because because yeah i mean maybe

680
00:23:53,669 --> 00:23:51,600
i mean the claims of christianity are

681
00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:53,679
enormously complex

682
00:23:56,950 --> 00:23:56,400
the character and and lifetime of jesus

683
00:23:59,110 --> 00:23:56,960
christ

684
00:23:59,990 --> 00:23:59,120
i mean heck the political background of

685
00:24:02,390 --> 00:24:00,000
jesus

686
00:24:03,510 --> 00:24:02,400
would take lifetimes to understand just

687
00:24:06,710 --> 00:24:03,520
the backdrop of what

688
00:24:09,669 --> 00:24:06,720
his life is in relief against it's crazy

689
00:24:13,110 --> 00:24:09,679
complicated so is ineptitude on my part

690
00:24:14,549 --> 00:24:13,120
probable well of course

691
00:24:17,029 --> 00:24:14,559
i don't know all this stuff i'm thinking

692
00:24:18,710 --> 00:24:17,039
about it i'm working on it um

693
00:24:20,070 --> 00:24:18,720
but i'm trying to do it honestly because

694
00:24:21,669 --> 00:24:20,080
i don't want to lie to myself about

695
00:24:23,510 --> 00:24:21,679
something with stakes like that

696
00:24:25,110 --> 00:24:23,520
and i don't want to lie to other people

697
00:24:26,630 --> 00:24:25,120
about something with stakes like that

698
00:24:28,870 --> 00:24:26,640
and the way that

699
00:24:30,830 --> 00:24:28,880
has formed my style when i was at church

700
00:24:33,830 --> 00:24:30,840
and with what i'm doing on the internet

701
00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:33,840
is well i'm really empathetic to people

702
00:24:37,590 --> 00:24:35,520
who've looked at the same data i have

703
00:24:40,630 --> 00:24:37,600
and have come to a different conclusion

704
00:24:43,590 --> 00:24:40,640
i i like you i'm not threatened

705
00:24:45,990 --> 00:24:43,600
by you i to me it seems like we're doing

706
00:24:48,310 --> 00:24:46,000
the exact same homework project and

707
00:24:50,789 --> 00:24:48,320
wherever we are in the process here

708
00:24:53,029 --> 00:24:50,799
we are we're deciding what to do with

709
00:24:56,470 --> 00:24:53,039
that data a little differently

710
00:24:58,070 --> 00:24:56,480
but that isn't threatening and so

711
00:24:59,669 --> 00:24:58,080
in all my stuff i just try to take into

712
00:25:02,789 --> 00:24:59,679
account and assume

713
00:25:05,269 --> 00:25:02,799
and all of my my podcast data and my

714
00:25:06,789 --> 00:25:05,279
youtube data indicates that this is true

715
00:25:09,430 --> 00:25:06,799
the people who do not think what i'm

716
00:25:12,390 --> 00:25:09,440
think are hanging out with with me

717
00:25:13,990 --> 00:25:12,400
and that we're processing this through

718
00:25:15,909 --> 00:25:14,000
together and i assume some people

719
00:25:17,110 --> 00:25:15,919
watch and listen to my stuff because

720
00:25:19,510 --> 00:25:17,120
they would just

721
00:25:20,870 --> 00:25:19,520
like the raw data please could you just

722
00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:20,880
give me the raw materials of

723
00:25:23,350 --> 00:25:22,000
christianity

724
00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:23,360
i'll decide what to do with it i don't

725
00:25:25,430 --> 00:25:24,640
need your help with that thank you very

726
00:25:27,669 --> 00:25:25,440
much

727
00:25:28,789 --> 00:25:27,679
but without all of the persuasion and

728
00:25:30,470 --> 00:25:28,799
the angle

729
00:25:32,070 --> 00:25:30,480
and the you telling me how to behave and

730
00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:32,080
what to do and how to vote and what to

731
00:25:34,950 --> 00:25:32,960
think

732
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:34,960
could you just break it down and could i

733
00:25:37,830 --> 00:25:36,480
hear what your thought process is as you

734
00:25:39,909 --> 00:25:37,840
break it down so that

735
00:25:41,990 --> 00:25:39,919
i can get some kind of objectivity on

736
00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:42,000
the thing so i would like to be that guy

737
00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:44,320
on the internet who full disclosure yeah

738
00:25:46,549 --> 00:25:45,200
i'm in

739
00:25:48,870 --> 00:25:46,559
but the reason i balk at the term

740
00:25:52,149 --> 00:25:48,880
apologist is

741
00:25:53,990 --> 00:25:52,159
i'm trying to game out the arguments

742
00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:54,000
for and against i'm trying to game out

743
00:25:58,950 --> 00:25:55,200
multiple positions

744
00:26:01,269 --> 00:25:58,960
on any issue that i'm talking about and

745
00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:01,279
i don't know man i'm pretty libertarian

746
00:26:06,549 --> 00:26:03,520
minded i just

747
00:26:07,909 --> 00:26:06,559
i don't try to close the deal i just

748
00:26:09,350 --> 00:26:07,919
don't feel like that's my role in this

749
00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:09,360
whole conversation

750
00:26:13,669 --> 00:26:11,520
lots of people on all sides of the

751
00:26:16,549 --> 00:26:13,679
discussion feel like that's their role

752
00:26:17,990 --> 00:26:16,559
i tip my hat cool takes all types you

753
00:26:21,909 --> 00:26:18,000
knock yourself out

754
00:26:25,669 --> 00:26:23,909
looks at the data has several

755
00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:25,679
conversations metaphorically with me

756
00:26:27,669 --> 00:26:26,640
over the internet

757
00:26:29,750 --> 00:26:27,679
and they get to a place where they're

758
00:26:31,830 --> 00:26:29,760
like you know what looking at that thing

759
00:26:33,909 --> 00:26:31,840
on its merits and not on the merits of

760
00:26:35,590 --> 00:26:33,919
internet rumors

761
00:26:36,870 --> 00:26:35,600
yeah i think i want to give that a try

762
00:26:38,230 --> 00:26:36,880
but that adds up i think it's more

763
00:26:39,350 --> 00:26:38,240
likely that there's a god than there's

764
00:26:41,830 --> 00:26:39,360
not i think

765
00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:41,840
the version of that historically that

766
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:43,600
includes jesus makes more sense than the

767
00:26:46,789 --> 00:26:44,640
other ones

768
00:26:48,549 --> 00:26:46,799
i'm in i want him to do that because

769
00:26:50,230 --> 00:26:48,559
they just took their time like jesus

770
00:26:51,430 --> 00:26:50,240
said to do count the cost

771
00:26:53,029 --> 00:26:51,440
thought about it real hard and we're

772
00:26:54,870 --> 00:26:53,039
like i'm gonna give it a go and the

773
00:26:56,230 --> 00:26:54,880
feedback i get is that people who decide

774
00:26:57,750 --> 00:26:56,240
to be christians from

775
00:26:59,909 --> 00:26:57,760
corresponding with me while not

776
00:27:01,269 --> 00:26:59,919
corresponding but listening to my stuff

777
00:27:03,350 --> 00:27:01,279
watching my stuff

778
00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:03,360
they don't usually tend to sign up for a

779
00:27:06,390 --> 00:27:05,039
version of church that looks much like

780
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:06,400
the version that i do

781
00:27:09,669 --> 00:27:07,840
and they're going to figure it out very

782
00:27:10,390 --> 00:27:09,679
independently they go and do their math

783
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:10,400
on it

784
00:27:13,190 --> 00:27:12,000
and they land where they land and we

785
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:13,200
high five and they get on with their

786
00:27:18,710 --> 00:27:14,880
life and that's cool

787
00:27:20,789 --> 00:27:18,720
and so i might be a disappointing guest

788
00:27:23,830 --> 00:27:20,799
in that regard alex because i'm

789
00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:23,840
i'm in a weird place here and i'm i'm in

790
00:27:28,870 --> 00:27:25,360
a place where i think

791
00:27:33,269 --> 00:27:31,830
on the part of christianity for how to

792
00:27:36,870 --> 00:27:33,279
interact with people who

793
00:27:38,389 --> 00:27:36,880
don't hold the same views is needed

794
00:27:40,710 --> 00:27:38,399
for a long time that ethic has been

795
00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:40,720
formulated out of a position of strength

796
00:27:46,470 --> 00:27:43,760
i mean roughly protestant-ish

797
00:27:48,070 --> 00:27:46,480
christianity dominated the 20th century

798
00:27:50,070 --> 00:27:48,080
kids got raised around it they didn't

799
00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:50,080
really think about it much

800
00:27:53,269 --> 00:27:52,480
that wasn't encouraged but you know they

801
00:27:55,750 --> 00:27:53,279
get the gist

802
00:27:57,590 --> 00:27:55,760
and um and that's that you just grew up

803
00:28:00,630 --> 00:27:57,600
with this vague assumption the socially

804
00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:00,640
easy thing for a hundred years was

805
00:28:04,310 --> 00:28:03,600
be kind of how i was raised now the

806
00:28:06,070 --> 00:28:04,320
socially

807
00:28:08,789 --> 00:28:06,080
easy thing and i predict it probably

808
00:28:11,909 --> 00:28:08,799
will be for the next 50 or 100 years

809
00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:11,919
is i don't know a default position is

810
00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:14,080
probably no on the god thing probably no

811
00:28:19,269 --> 00:28:16,240
on the organized religion thing

812
00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:19,279
okay so

813
00:28:22,549 --> 00:28:21,120
so christianity was operating from a

814
00:28:25,909 --> 00:28:22,559
position of

815
00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:25,919
i think misused strength i think it it

816
00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:27,760
squandered an opportunity to invite

817
00:28:30,310 --> 00:28:29,600
people into the richness and complexity

818
00:28:32,789 --> 00:28:30,320
of

819
00:28:35,190 --> 00:28:32,799
this whole thing uh and now it operates

820
00:28:37,830 --> 00:28:35,200
from a position of relative weakness

821
00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:37,840
but the clumsy ethic i still see being

822
00:28:40,710 --> 00:28:39,440
played out on tv and on the internet

823
00:28:42,310 --> 00:28:40,720
from christians

824
00:28:43,990 --> 00:28:42,320
is that we're still operating like

825
00:28:46,470 --> 00:28:44,000
everybody owes us something or

826
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:46,480
like like this is the default position

827
00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:47,360
no it's not

828
00:28:50,710 --> 00:28:50,159
no no it really isn't at all there are

829
00:28:52,470 --> 00:28:50,720
people

830
00:28:54,230 --> 00:28:52,480
who do not think what we think and

831
00:28:55,669 --> 00:28:54,240
arrived there through a process of hard

832
00:28:58,230 --> 00:28:55,679
work and dedication and

833
00:29:00,310 --> 00:28:58,240
consideration those people deserve our

834
00:29:02,630 --> 00:29:00,320
respect

835
00:29:03,909 --> 00:29:02,640
i'm with you i'm with you right up till

836
00:29:06,789 --> 00:29:03,919
the end there

837
00:29:07,029 --> 00:29:06,799
but uh i said there are people i did not

838
00:29:14,549 --> 00:29:07,039
go

839
00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:14,559
and so i i'm trying to operate the thing

840
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:15,760
in such a way where instead of people

841
00:29:19,269 --> 00:29:16,960
who don't believe what i believe

842
00:29:20,710 --> 00:29:19,279
being a cautionary tale that i hold out

843
00:29:23,029 --> 00:29:20,720
as a negative example

844
00:29:24,470 --> 00:29:23,039
for good christians to avoid falling

845
00:29:27,909 --> 00:29:24,480
into

846
00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:27,919
i would rather hold out a

847
00:29:31,430 --> 00:29:30,240
caricature of the people who don't think

848
00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:31,440
what i think

849
00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:34,480
as people of goodwill who i haven't met

850
00:29:37,269 --> 00:29:35,760
with who deserve the benefit of the

851
00:29:38,070 --> 00:29:37,279
doubt until they don't earn the benefit

852
00:29:39,510 --> 00:29:38,080
of the doubt

853
00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:39,520
who might like to talk about the same

854
00:29:42,149 --> 00:29:41,120
ideas i like to talk about and come to

855
00:29:44,549 --> 00:29:42,159
different conclusions

856
00:29:45,510 --> 00:29:44,559
so try to underscore what i do with that

857
00:29:47,909 --> 00:29:45,520
tone so that

858
00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:47,919
i can be outside my bubble and benefit

859
00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:48,960
from

860
00:29:52,149 --> 00:29:51,760
putting together multiple processors

861
00:29:54,230 --> 00:29:52,159
that

862
00:29:56,470 --> 00:29:54,240
can run more equations than my single

863
00:29:57,990 --> 00:29:56,480
processor can run at any given time

864
00:29:59,830 --> 00:29:58,000
and try to benefit from the work of

865
00:30:01,750 --> 00:29:59,840
others and and

866
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:01,760
accelerate my ability to game out what i

867
00:30:07,430 --> 00:30:03,840
think really is

868
00:30:09,029 --> 00:30:07,440
the key question of human existence

869
00:30:10,710 --> 00:30:09,039
what's the point what are we doing here

870
00:30:12,389 --> 00:30:10,720
where'd we come from where are we going

871
00:30:13,830 --> 00:30:12,399
and that answers or speaks to the

872
00:30:16,310 --> 00:30:13,840
question of what do i do with you

873
00:30:17,350 --> 00:30:16,320
i mean how should i view alex what value

874
00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:17,360
do you have

875
00:30:20,830 --> 00:30:18,880
how should i conceive of you how should

876
00:30:23,990 --> 00:30:20,840
i treat you so to me it's a big deal

877
00:30:24,789 --> 00:30:24,000
and i suppose all of this internet stuff

878
00:30:27,510 --> 00:30:24,799
that i'm doing

879
00:30:29,269 --> 00:30:27,520
is my way of inviting other people to

880
00:30:30,789 --> 00:30:29,279
process something i'm really passionate

881
00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:30,799
about processing

882
00:30:34,149 --> 00:30:32,080
that's a long answer to your question

883
00:30:37,350 --> 00:30:34,159
thanks for indulging me

884
00:30:39,909 --> 00:30:37,360
absolutely that's fantastic you touched

885
00:30:40,870 --> 00:30:39,919
i mean you just ran the gamut there you

886
00:30:44,389 --> 00:30:40,880
know the the

887
00:30:48,789 --> 00:30:44,399
sub title kind of ethos of this show

888
00:30:52,230 --> 00:30:48,799
is inquiry to perpetuate doubt

889
00:30:53,669 --> 00:30:52,240
and uh because the term skepticos

890
00:30:55,669 --> 00:30:53,679
you know i was great raised in the greek

891
00:30:57,750 --> 00:30:55,679
orthodox church

892
00:30:59,590 --> 00:30:57,760
the greek tradition in my family and

893
00:31:01,669 --> 00:30:59,600
stuff like that so i picked this name

894
00:31:03,269 --> 00:31:01,679
because those were the ancient greek

895
00:31:05,029 --> 00:31:03,279
philosophers

896
00:31:06,389 --> 00:31:05,039
and i didn't even realize this matt at

897
00:31:07,110 --> 00:31:06,399
the time i just picked the name

898
00:31:08,549 --> 00:31:07,120
basically

899
00:31:09,990 --> 00:31:08,559
it's you could really i'm sure you can

900
00:31:12,070 --> 00:31:10,000
relate to this in a lot of ways in your

901
00:31:13,990 --> 00:31:12,080
story that we could get into but

902
00:31:15,430 --> 00:31:14,000
it wasn't until a few years later that i

903
00:31:15,990 --> 00:31:15,440
actually read what these guys were all

904
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:16,000
about

905
00:31:19,029 --> 00:31:18,240
and i ran across this thing they were

906
00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:19,039
about

907
00:31:24,789 --> 00:31:22,640
inquiry to perpetuate doubt because

908
00:31:26,149 --> 00:31:24,799
i believe as you do the doubt is a

909
00:31:29,110 --> 00:31:26,159
spiritual thing

910
00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:29,120
right because if you are decided if you

911
00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:30,240
have these beliefs

912
00:31:35,190 --> 00:31:33,440
if you have faith that's a barrier that

913
00:31:37,430 --> 00:31:35,200
is a barrier to your

914
00:31:38,950 --> 00:31:37,440
i think in my opinion to your ultimate

915
00:31:42,230 --> 00:31:38,960
connection

916
00:31:44,070 --> 00:31:42,240
because that is always in the kind of

917
00:31:46,149 --> 00:31:44,080
etheric realm of kind of being

918
00:31:47,350 --> 00:31:46,159
rediscovered and is that rediscovery

919
00:31:49,669 --> 00:31:47,360
it's the zen mind

920
00:31:51,029 --> 00:31:49,679
beginner minds and mind but not to

921
00:31:52,950 --> 00:31:51,039
digress too far because i want to pick

922
00:31:54,710 --> 00:31:52,960
on a couple other points you said

923
00:31:55,990 --> 00:31:54,720
that you know i love what you put what

924
00:31:59,750 --> 00:31:56,000
had you say it

925
00:32:02,870 --> 00:31:59,760
homework project like you know for me

926
00:32:05,509 --> 00:32:02,880
i started skeptico after

927
00:32:07,750 --> 00:32:05,519
i had kind of done the business thing i

928
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:07,760
that was my upbringing was hey

929
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:10,720
get the money you know so that

930
00:32:16,389 --> 00:32:12,000
was my

931
00:32:17,430 --> 00:32:16,399
value system of

932
00:32:18,870 --> 00:32:17,440
you know those greeks that were getting

933
00:32:19,830 --> 00:32:18,880
together at the greek orthodox church

934
00:32:21,830 --> 00:32:19,840
they're about hey

935
00:32:23,750 --> 00:32:21,840
are you getting paid during the week you

936
00:32:25,509 --> 00:32:23,760
know it's a different

937
00:32:27,110 --> 00:32:25,519
it's a different value it's much closer

938
00:32:29,029 --> 00:32:27,120
to i don't know the jewish tradition

939
00:32:30,149 --> 00:32:29,039
that much but it's much closer to their

940
00:32:31,990 --> 00:32:30,159
kind of thing like

941
00:32:33,669 --> 00:32:32,000
hey phal are you getting paid you know

942
00:32:34,230 --> 00:32:33,679
now we can come in worship but during

943
00:32:37,830 --> 00:32:34,240
the week

944
00:32:40,710 --> 00:32:37,840
you're getting paid right so my value

945
00:32:41,269 --> 00:32:40,720
was make the business stuff happen so

946
00:32:45,190 --> 00:32:41,279
you know

947
00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:45,200
i did the mba i went back to get a phd

948
00:32:47,830 --> 00:32:46,960
in artificial intelligence

949
00:32:50,070 --> 00:32:47,840
because i was pretty good at the

950
00:32:51,590 --> 00:32:50,080
computer programming stuff started a

951
00:32:53,669 --> 00:32:51,600
company

952
00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:53,679
failed miserably but eventually found a

953
00:32:58,950 --> 00:32:54,960
way

954
00:33:00,950 --> 00:32:58,960
and then i did the homework project

955
00:33:02,310 --> 00:33:00,960
because kind of like you in a way the

956
00:33:04,870 --> 00:33:02,320
whole time i'm thinking

957
00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:04,880
well certainly this is just to get to

958
00:33:07,990 --> 00:33:06,880
the point where we can discover who we

959
00:33:09,990 --> 00:33:08,000
are and why we're here

960
00:33:11,669 --> 00:33:10,000
i mean that's that's what everyone's

961
00:33:12,549 --> 00:33:11,679
doing right everyone's trying to get

962
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:12,559
enough

963
00:33:18,310 --> 00:33:15,760
free time money resources whatever to

964
00:33:19,029 --> 00:33:18,320
do the homework project who are we why

965
00:33:21,590 --> 00:33:19,039
are we here

966
00:33:23,590 --> 00:33:21,600
so you know connecting with you right

967
00:33:27,509 --> 00:33:23,600
now one of the things i think is so

968
00:33:30,630 --> 00:33:27,519
really cool is that to me

969
00:33:32,549 --> 00:33:30,640
i've got it big headed sometimes i was

970
00:33:35,350 --> 00:33:32,559
surprised to find

971
00:33:37,190 --> 00:33:35,360
that no not everyone is down with the

972
00:33:39,269 --> 00:33:37,200
homework project that that is the

973
00:33:40,950 --> 00:33:39,279
primary directive you know find out why

974
00:33:43,990 --> 00:33:40,960
we're here

975
00:33:46,549 --> 00:33:44,000
old school

976
00:33:47,590 --> 00:33:46,559
greek school of thought as well i mean

977
00:33:49,909 --> 00:33:47,600
you're hedonists

978
00:33:51,509 --> 00:33:49,919
your sophists they all had a different

979
00:33:51,990 --> 00:33:51,519
angle on what you make of the homework

980
00:33:55,269 --> 00:33:52,000
project

981
00:33:57,269 --> 00:33:55,279
and how much attention it actually

982
00:33:58,389 --> 00:33:57,279
deserves your stoics had a different

983
00:34:00,310 --> 00:33:58,399
read on that

984
00:34:02,070 --> 00:34:00,320
your epicureans had a different read on

985
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:02,080
that and so

986
00:34:06,549 --> 00:34:04,320
yeah we're not all wired the same but i

987
00:34:08,790 --> 00:34:06,559
think you and i are wired similarly

988
00:34:10,389 --> 00:34:08,800
well you know the other way that that i

989
00:34:11,829 --> 00:34:10,399
related to your story that i thought was

990
00:34:13,349 --> 00:34:11,839
really cool and i like all the computer

991
00:34:15,109 --> 00:34:13,359
references and the buffer

992
00:34:17,829 --> 00:34:15,119
uh isn't moving fast enough i thought

993
00:34:20,950 --> 00:34:17,839
was great but i always have the feeling

994
00:34:23,909 --> 00:34:20,960
that me and everyone else

995
00:34:25,669 --> 00:34:23,919
is processing all this information at a

996
00:34:28,230 --> 00:34:25,679
very high rate

997
00:34:29,990 --> 00:34:28,240
and then they are internalizing it and

998
00:34:32,790 --> 00:34:30,000
expressing it

999
00:34:33,349 --> 00:34:32,800
kind of in a slower way so when you

1000
00:34:34,869 --> 00:34:33,359
broke

1001
00:34:37,589 --> 00:34:34,879
i mean that's the cool part about your

1002
00:34:40,629 --> 00:34:37,599
story i think you know is you broke

1003
00:34:44,470 --> 00:34:40,639
and to me the breaking is

1004
00:34:46,389 --> 00:34:44,480
when our internal rapid processing of

1005
00:34:48,550 --> 00:34:46,399
all the information

1006
00:34:49,589 --> 00:34:48,560
comes up that does not compute that does

1007
00:34:52,069 --> 00:34:49,599
not compute

1008
00:34:53,430 --> 00:34:52,079
and then it relates to us in an

1009
00:34:57,510 --> 00:34:53,440
emotional level

1010
00:34:58,470 --> 00:34:57,520
so i i think those kind of stories to me

1011
00:35:01,349 --> 00:34:58,480
are exciting

1012
00:35:01,990 --> 00:35:01,359
because i try and create those broke

1013
00:35:05,109 --> 00:35:02,000
moments for

1014
00:35:07,990 --> 00:35:05,119
myself all the time so on this show

1015
00:35:09,270 --> 00:35:08,000
uh many many years ago i hate to

1016
00:35:10,790 --> 00:35:09,280
acknowledge how many years i've been

1017
00:35:12,950 --> 00:35:10,800
doing this but i love it i love it i

1018
00:35:15,829 --> 00:35:12,960
love it i love it so i don't i love this

1019
00:35:16,150 --> 00:35:15,839
i love the chance to connect with people

1020
00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:16,160
who

1021
00:35:18,950 --> 00:35:17,440
i would never have a chance to connect

1022
00:35:20,470 --> 00:35:18,960
to and i really have no reason to

1023
00:35:22,790 --> 00:35:20,480
connect to i don't have any

1024
00:35:23,510 --> 00:35:22,800
financial interest or you know promoting

1025
00:35:26,630 --> 00:35:23,520
or anything like

1026
00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:26,640
it's just like wow that is cool and then

1027
00:35:30,630 --> 00:35:28,960
how awesome is this internet thing that

1028
00:35:33,030 --> 00:35:30,640
i can call up you know

1029
00:35:34,230 --> 00:35:33,040
last week i was talking to a new york

1030
00:35:35,910 --> 00:35:34,240
times uh

1031
00:35:37,670 --> 00:35:35,920
journalist and best-selling author and

1032
00:35:39,430 --> 00:35:37,680
stuff like that i never get the chance

1033
00:35:40,550 --> 00:35:39,440
to talk to that guy but i got a chance

1034
00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:40,560
to talk to him because

1035
00:35:44,470 --> 00:35:42,400
yeah i do this thing and that's cool

1036
00:35:47,589 --> 00:35:44,480
expanding the knowledge

1037
00:35:48,150 --> 00:35:47,599
so here is how the path may be getting

1038
00:35:50,069 --> 00:35:48,160
back to

1039
00:35:52,630 --> 00:35:50,079
where we're at right now and pontius

1040
00:35:55,190 --> 00:35:52,640
pilate pontius pilate so cool and i love

1041
00:35:58,630 --> 00:35:55,200
all the stuff you did with it

1042
00:36:00,710 --> 00:35:58,640
so i started out saying okay who are we

1043
00:36:03,750 --> 00:36:00,720
why are we here

1044
00:36:04,230 --> 00:36:03,760
and since i'm kind of a sciencey more

1045
00:36:06,950 --> 00:36:04,240
guy

1046
00:36:09,910 --> 00:36:06,960
i said let's look at science now i had i

1047
00:36:13,510 --> 00:36:09,920
have to admit in the back of my head

1048
00:36:16,310 --> 00:36:13,520
i had a pretty good idea

1049
00:36:18,310 --> 00:36:16,320
that the science people the skeptical

1050
00:36:18,310 --> 00:36:19,030
people the atheist people were full of

1051
00:36:22,870 --> 00:36:21,030
but i couldn't really prove it you know

1052
00:36:25,349 --> 00:36:22,880
i didn't feel like i could prove it from

1053
00:36:28,310 --> 00:36:25,359
a scientific standpoint

1054
00:36:29,829 --> 00:36:28,320
and i think i did that and i even wrote

1055
00:36:31,430 --> 00:36:29,839
a book about that why science is wrong

1056
00:36:33,670 --> 00:36:31,440
about almost everything

1057
00:36:35,829 --> 00:36:33,680
and i talked to people like dr rupert

1058
00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:35,839
sheldrick cambridge biologist who wrote

1059
00:36:38,950 --> 00:36:37,440
the intro and the forward to that book

1060
00:36:43,109 --> 00:36:38,960
and i talked to dean raiden

1061
00:36:45,589 --> 00:36:43,119
who did a six sigma you know result

1062
00:36:47,349 --> 00:36:45,599
experiment that shows that consciousness

1063
00:36:48,230 --> 00:36:47,359
is fundamental and the consciousness

1064
00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:48,240
exists

1065
00:36:53,030 --> 00:36:51,839
which is you know the tricky part like a

1066
00:36:54,870 --> 00:36:53,040
big part of this project

1067
00:36:56,790 --> 00:36:54,880
i spent 50 shows and sorting through

1068
00:36:59,750 --> 00:36:56,800
this kind of stuff is

1069
00:37:00,390 --> 00:36:59,760
the mental gymnastics that the atheist

1070
00:37:03,270 --> 00:37:00,400
goes

1071
00:37:05,030 --> 00:37:03,280
through to support their idea that you

1072
00:37:05,589 --> 00:37:05,040
are a biological robot in a meaningless

1073
00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:05,599
universe

1074
00:37:08,710 --> 00:37:07,440
and that your life essentially has no

1075
00:37:09,670 --> 00:37:08,720
meaning because there's no meaning in

1076
00:37:11,910 --> 00:37:09,680
the universe

1077
00:37:13,190 --> 00:37:11,920
i mean it's not just your life it's like

1078
00:37:15,190 --> 00:37:13,200
there is no

1079
00:37:16,950 --> 00:37:15,200
meaning in the universe so there can't

1080
00:37:18,630 --> 00:37:16,960
be any meaning in your accidental is it

1081
00:37:20,870 --> 00:37:18,640
possible that that is a

1082
00:37:21,670 --> 00:37:20,880
social engineering project and that's

1083
00:37:22,950 --> 00:37:21,680
what we're going to talk about when we

1084
00:37:24,790 --> 00:37:22,960
talk about the romans

1085
00:37:27,510 --> 00:37:24,800
because the romans were all about social

1086
00:37:30,470 --> 00:37:27,520
engineering and all about

1087
00:37:30,870 --> 00:37:30,480
how to control people however you're

1088
00:37:32,710 --> 00:37:30,880
going to

1089
00:37:34,790 --> 00:37:32,720
you know hey just path path of least

1090
00:37:36,470 --> 00:37:34,800
resistance if i can control you with

1091
00:37:38,710 --> 00:37:36,480
the spear if i can control you with the

1092
00:37:40,069 --> 00:37:38,720
gun that's good but if i can control you

1093
00:37:40,710 --> 00:37:40,079
and not have to do that i can get you to

1094
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:40,720
control

1095
00:37:45,190 --> 00:37:44,640
each other hey that's just better man

1096
00:37:47,829 --> 00:37:45,200
that's a

1097
00:37:49,829 --> 00:37:47,839
less use as a resource no one kind of

1098
00:37:51,030 --> 00:37:49,839
comes at me i sit back and go you know

1099
00:37:51,750 --> 00:37:51,040
that's what the romans were famous for

1100
00:37:53,510 --> 00:37:51,760
doing like hey

1101
00:37:55,190 --> 00:37:53,520
hey hey hey they start the fight and

1102
00:37:56,790 --> 00:37:55,200
then they'd come in and go okay come on

1103
00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:56,800
hey let me see where are you guys you're

1104
00:37:59,990 --> 00:37:58,320
going to need more authority from us we

1105
00:38:01,349 --> 00:38:00,000
can't have this kind of chaos we gave

1106
00:38:03,270 --> 00:38:01,359
you a chance

1107
00:38:05,270 --> 00:38:03,280
after stoking the fire at charles barks

1108
00:38:08,950 --> 00:38:05,280
exactly just called that out

1109
00:38:11,270 --> 00:38:08,960
uh during the ncaa final four last week

1110
00:38:13,190 --> 00:38:11,280
i mean they're doing a pretty standard

1111
00:38:15,109 --> 00:38:13,200
issue virtue signaling segment

1112
00:38:16,470 --> 00:38:15,119
it happens to be that they were virtue

1113
00:38:17,589 --> 00:38:16,480
signaling some of the virtues that i

1114
00:38:21,349 --> 00:38:17,599
think are virtuous

1115
00:38:22,950 --> 00:38:21,359
still right still still one black guy

1116
00:38:24,470 --> 00:38:22,960
on the stage is the one who comes back

1117
00:38:25,910 --> 00:38:24,480
and he's like you know i can't do it

1118
00:38:28,069 --> 00:38:25,920
charles barkley in person

1119
00:38:30,150 --> 00:38:28,079
i think most white people are good

1120
00:38:32,550 --> 00:38:30,160
people i think most black people

1121
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:32,560
are good people and it's these democrats

1122
00:38:35,510 --> 00:38:34,000
and it's these republicans who don't

1123
00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:35,520
live in our neighborhoods

1124
00:38:39,109 --> 00:38:37,440
who want to make us fight over money

1125
00:38:40,230 --> 00:38:39,119
fight over race and it's i mean it's

1126
00:38:42,790 --> 00:38:40,240
just

1127
00:38:43,510 --> 00:38:42,800
the emperor has no clothes and charles

1128
00:38:45,829 --> 00:38:43,520
barkley

1129
00:38:47,670 --> 00:38:45,839
is going to be the one who's willing to

1130
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:47,680
point out that the emperor has no it was

1131
00:38:50,310 --> 00:38:47,920
an

1132
00:38:51,589 --> 00:38:50,320
amazing set of remarks that he just

1133
00:38:53,430 --> 00:38:51,599
threw out off the cuff while giving

1134
00:38:55,430 --> 00:38:53,440
everybody the benefit of the doubt

1135
00:38:57,670 --> 00:38:55,440
appealing to some something that is

1136
00:39:00,790 --> 00:38:57,680
bigger than

1137
00:39:04,310 --> 00:39:00,800
than a collectivist group dynamic

1138
00:39:07,829 --> 00:39:04,320
rooted in materialistic behavioralism

1139
00:39:09,670 --> 00:39:07,839
he was saying now there's some

1140
00:39:12,550 --> 00:39:09,680
more meaning to who we are and there's

1141
00:39:13,829 --> 00:39:12,560
some more intrinsic value regardless of

1142
00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:13,839
what you look like or where you came

1143
00:39:18,630 --> 00:39:15,440
from or what you believe

1144
00:39:20,950 --> 00:39:18,640
that people bear and what that produces

1145
00:39:24,390 --> 00:39:20,960
historically

1146
00:39:27,670 --> 00:39:24,400
is massive competition

1147
00:39:29,990 --> 00:39:27,680
and individualism in the marketplace

1148
00:39:31,270 --> 00:39:30,000
that can be a destructive system what

1149
00:39:33,030 --> 00:39:31,280
about spiritual people

1150
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:33,040
what about and it can be offered that is

1151
00:39:37,510 --> 00:39:35,760
spiritual that is spiritual

1152
00:39:39,349 --> 00:39:37,520
the what does it produce see what does

1153
00:39:40,230 --> 00:39:39,359
it produce spiritually is what i'm

1154
00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:40,240
interested in

1155
00:39:42,870 --> 00:39:41,440
and i think some people believe that you

1156
00:39:44,550 --> 00:39:42,880
can make better stuff that you could

1157
00:39:46,150 --> 00:39:44,560
help other people that you could invest

1158
00:39:47,670 --> 00:39:46,160
in something bigger than yourself

1159
00:39:49,030 --> 00:39:47,680
that you could build a podcast that a

1160
00:39:49,829 --> 00:39:49,040
whole bunch of people would want to tune

1161
00:39:51,109 --> 00:39:49,839
into

1162
00:39:53,109 --> 00:39:51,119
and connect with that instead of

1163
00:39:54,630 --> 00:39:53,119
processing this privately you could

1164
00:39:55,270 --> 00:39:54,640
share that experience with a bunch of

1165
00:39:59,190 --> 00:39:55,280
people

1166
00:40:02,069 --> 00:39:59,200
what you what you do is spiritual

1167
00:40:03,510 --> 00:40:02,079
one way or another and and what i

1168
00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:03,520
resonated with so much about what you

1169
00:40:08,630 --> 00:40:04,960
just said alex

1170
00:40:09,510 --> 00:40:08,640
is that uh i think it's the university

1171
00:40:11,510 --> 00:40:09,520
of hawaii their

1172
00:40:14,150 --> 00:40:11,520
department that does the study on

1173
00:40:15,990 --> 00:40:14,160
demicide murder by government not war

1174
00:40:17,829 --> 00:40:16,000
like a government saying for the greater

1175
00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:17,839
good these people need to go

1176
00:40:22,069 --> 00:40:20,960
what they come up with like 217 270

1177
00:40:23,670 --> 00:40:22,079
million people

1178
00:40:26,069 --> 00:40:23,680
over the course of the 20th century and

1179
00:40:27,829 --> 00:40:26,079
just into the 21st

1180
00:40:29,190 --> 00:40:27,839
murdered by their own government for the

1181
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:29,200
greater good

1182
00:40:35,270 --> 00:40:32,880
a collectivism is not this panacea

1183
00:40:36,309 --> 00:40:35,280
it is a there's a spiritual assumption

1184
00:40:38,550 --> 00:40:36,319
behind it

1185
00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:38,560
and that spiritual assumption greases

1186
00:40:40,870 --> 00:40:40,240
the skids for some very destructive

1187
00:40:43,829 --> 00:40:40,880
stuff

1188
00:40:45,510 --> 00:40:43,839
that does not give a pass to a very

1189
00:40:46,309 --> 00:40:45,520
different version of destructive stuff

1190
00:40:49,030 --> 00:40:46,319
that can be born

1191
00:40:51,430 --> 00:40:49,040
out of theistic assumptions and those

1192
00:40:52,950 --> 00:40:51,440
are worth exploring as well but the idea

1193
00:40:57,030 --> 00:40:52,960
that somehow collectivism and

1194
00:41:02,950 --> 00:41:00,630
non-conscious meat bag robot mentality

1195
00:41:04,710 --> 00:41:02,960
that brings us toward a better

1196
00:41:06,230 --> 00:41:04,720
gene roddenberry style looking forward

1197
00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:06,240
to the future panacea

1198
00:41:10,550 --> 00:41:08,560
it just doesn't bear out historically

1199
00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:10,560
it's fraught with problems too

1200
00:41:15,190 --> 00:41:12,640
and to deny that i think is silly and i

1201
00:41:17,109 --> 00:41:15,200
i appreciate your points on it

1202
00:41:20,309 --> 00:41:17,119
you know man i just wrote a book not to

1203
00:41:22,309 --> 00:41:20,319
pump books i just wrote

1204
00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:22,319
why evil matters how science and

1205
00:41:26,390 --> 00:41:23,839
religion fumble the big one

1206
00:41:27,670 --> 00:41:26,400
and the real it was kind of like a foul

1207
00:41:32,390 --> 00:41:27,680
line to the first one

1208
00:41:35,030 --> 00:41:32,400
if you understand that science is

1209
00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:35,040
the the real drive of science is to

1210
00:41:38,390 --> 00:41:36,240
create

1211
00:41:39,990 --> 00:41:38,400
separate you from your connection

1212
00:41:41,990 --> 00:41:40,000
separate you from

1213
00:41:43,190 --> 00:41:42,000
the extended consciousness realm that

1214
00:41:45,510 --> 00:41:43,200
you just live in you know

1215
00:41:47,829 --> 00:41:45,520
even if we don't understand what that

1216
00:41:49,270 --> 00:41:47,839
extended realm is and where jesus is

1217
00:41:50,630 --> 00:41:49,280
which everyone wants to go and where's

1218
00:41:52,950 --> 00:41:50,640
satan and all that

1219
00:41:54,710 --> 00:41:52,960
how about just acknowledging that yeah

1220
00:41:56,630 --> 00:41:54,720
there is consciousness and there seems

1221
00:41:59,190 --> 00:41:56,640
to be this extended consciousness realm

1222
00:42:01,190 --> 00:41:59,200
can't say that for sure but again follow

1223
00:42:02,069 --> 00:42:01,200
the data as soon as you make that big

1224
00:42:04,470 --> 00:42:02,079
leap

1225
00:42:06,150 --> 00:42:04,480
over the crevasse and say oh

1226
00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:06,160
consciousness does exist

1227
00:42:10,870 --> 00:42:09,040
news flash like every culture throughout

1228
00:42:12,470 --> 00:42:10,880
time hasn't known that you know but

1229
00:42:14,390 --> 00:42:12,480
that's been the thing there

1230
00:42:16,950 --> 00:42:14,400
right then you look at evil and to me

1231
00:42:22,470 --> 00:42:16,960
evil is

1232
00:42:23,910 --> 00:42:22,480
how evil has been kind of scrubbed from

1233
00:42:27,510 --> 00:42:23,920
the conversation

1234
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:27,520
you know because it doesn't fit with

1235
00:42:31,030 --> 00:42:29,200
where we really want to go

1236
00:42:32,470 --> 00:42:31,040
in terms of understanding some of these

1237
00:42:33,910 --> 00:42:32,480
fundamental questions like is there a

1238
00:42:34,630 --> 00:42:33,920
moral impairment unless it's politically

1239
00:42:38,150 --> 00:42:34,640
expedient

1240
00:42:41,349 --> 00:42:38,160
then there's evil and what would that

1241
00:42:44,069 --> 00:42:41,359
so i but see the reason i pull up

1242
00:42:45,109 --> 00:42:44,079
i'm going with the politics or even

1243
00:42:48,150 --> 00:42:45,119
going there

1244
00:42:50,069 --> 00:42:48,160
is that if it is a social engineering

1245
00:42:53,589 --> 00:42:50,079
project if that's in play not

1246
00:42:55,829 --> 00:42:53,599
everything but if that's in play

1247
00:42:58,069 --> 00:42:55,839
then you also have to consider that that

1248
00:43:00,069 --> 00:42:58,079
might be in play

1249
00:43:01,270 --> 00:43:00,079
in this extended realm right so i don't

1250
00:43:04,710 --> 00:43:01,280
want to go there too far

1251
00:43:06,790 --> 00:43:04,720
you know the occult the satanic

1252
00:43:08,309 --> 00:43:06,800
the all that stuff but that stuff's real

1253
00:43:10,550 --> 00:43:08,319
i mean you want to look at that

1254
00:43:12,069 --> 00:43:10,560
you know it's like a satanic panic right

1255
00:43:14,790 --> 00:43:12,079
it's like yeah satanic panic

1256
00:43:16,470 --> 00:43:14,800
is a hell of a thing but every one of

1257
00:43:18,950 --> 00:43:16,480
those cases

1258
00:43:20,150 --> 00:43:18,960
there's real satanic rituals going on so

1259
00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:20,160
mcmartin preschool

1260
00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:23,359
yeah that's bad satanic panic but

1261
00:43:28,550 --> 00:43:26,480
that guy was doing that and you know the

1262
00:43:30,950 --> 00:43:28,560
little kid maddie johnson who

1263
00:43:32,069 --> 00:43:30,960
was victim number one they took him to

1264
00:43:34,470 --> 00:43:32,079
ucla medicine

1265
00:43:36,230 --> 00:43:34,480
medical and the doctor said this kid's

1266
00:43:37,430 --> 00:43:36,240
been sexually abused

1267
00:43:39,270 --> 00:43:37,440
and then they took him to the police and

1268
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:39,280
they said this kid's been sexually

1269
00:43:42,710 --> 00:43:40,880
abused we better go talk to a guy big

1270
00:43:44,550 --> 00:43:42,720
martin's preschool because

1271
00:43:47,270 --> 00:43:44,560
little maddie says that's who did it to

1272
00:43:48,790 --> 00:43:47,280
him so we can spin it they can spin it

1273
00:43:51,030 --> 00:43:48,800
they being we know who they are

1274
00:43:52,710 --> 00:43:51,040
as satanic panic and it was i mean some

1275
00:43:54,870 --> 00:43:52,720
people got panicked and kind of

1276
00:43:56,309 --> 00:43:54,880
wrongful accusations and wrong all that

1277
00:43:59,990 --> 00:43:56,319
stuff it's that's real

1278
00:44:02,630 --> 00:44:00,000
but the core of it so anything on that

1279
00:44:04,230 --> 00:44:02,640
before we jump into pontius pilate

1280
00:44:05,910 --> 00:44:04,240
yeah couple thoughts on stuff you said

1281
00:44:08,950 --> 00:44:05,920
there uh

1282
00:44:11,829 --> 00:44:08,960
one i think there is

1283
00:44:13,109 --> 00:44:11,839
much more shaded area in the den than

1284
00:44:15,670 --> 00:44:13,119
the venn diagram

1285
00:44:17,109 --> 00:44:15,680
when it comes to what gets you to a

1286
00:44:18,069 --> 00:44:17,119
similar starting point for moral

1287
00:44:22,309 --> 00:44:18,079
philosophy

1288
00:44:27,589 --> 00:44:22,319
post

1289
00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:27,599
they were more or less the same thing

1290
00:44:34,230 --> 00:44:30,240
for a few thousand years in the west

1291
00:44:36,150 --> 00:44:34,240
prior to the scientific revolution i

1292
00:44:37,829 --> 00:44:36,160
i'm a little more optimistic in how i

1293
00:44:40,069 --> 00:44:37,839
would characterize science i mean

1294
00:44:42,309 --> 00:44:40,079
what you described sounds like it can be

1295
00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:42,319
the hubris of human knowledge that maybe

1296
00:44:45,349 --> 00:44:44,400
mythically or if you want to go

1297
00:44:47,750 --> 00:44:45,359
theologically

1298
00:44:49,670 --> 00:44:47,760
is warned about in the early chunks of

1299
00:44:52,069 --> 00:44:49,680
the book of genesis

1300
00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:52,079
but yeah in general i mean it's like

1301
00:44:55,030 --> 00:44:53,920
aristotle said by all by nature all men

1302
00:44:57,589 --> 00:44:55,040
desire to know

1303
00:44:59,190 --> 00:44:57,599
well natural philosophy or the hard

1304
00:45:00,309 --> 00:44:59,200
sciences as we now call them it's just

1305
00:45:02,390 --> 00:45:00,319
an extension of that

1306
00:45:03,829 --> 00:45:02,400
and people want to know i want to know

1307
00:45:06,230 --> 00:45:03,839
what that thing is in the sky i

1308
00:45:07,910 --> 00:45:06,240
want to know how that bridge works and

1309
00:45:09,670 --> 00:45:07,920
why it doesn't collapse i want to know

1310
00:45:11,190 --> 00:45:09,680
why when i plug this thing in and i get

1311
00:45:13,349 --> 00:45:11,200
electricity i want to know

1312
00:45:14,390 --> 00:45:13,359
how flicking a light off and on can

1313
00:45:17,190 --> 00:45:14,400
somehow communicate

1314
00:45:17,510 --> 00:45:17,200
sound fiber optics all that stuff it's

1315
00:45:19,829 --> 00:45:17,520
just

1316
00:45:22,390 --> 00:45:19,839
baffling and so i don't want to know for

1317
00:45:24,710 --> 00:45:22,400
any agenda like oh that proves my thing

1318
00:45:26,150 --> 00:45:24,720
or now i can have that in the ammo belt

1319
00:45:27,349 --> 00:45:26,160
next time i get in a debate with this

1320
00:45:29,910 --> 00:45:27,359
kind of person

1321
00:45:30,550 --> 00:45:29,920
i just want to freaking know because i

1322
00:45:33,270 --> 00:45:30,560
can't help

1323
00:45:33,750 --> 00:45:33,280
but want to know now for me i would say

1324
00:45:37,510 --> 00:45:33,760
that

1325
00:45:39,430 --> 00:45:37,520
is part of the cultivative mandate

1326
00:45:41,829 --> 00:45:39,440
that is either mythically or literally

1327
00:45:44,069 --> 00:45:41,839
described early in the book of genesis

1328
00:45:45,430 --> 00:45:44,079
it's it's not a burden that humans bear

1329
00:45:46,390 --> 00:45:45,440
it's something beautiful that defines

1330
00:45:49,109 --> 00:45:46,400
right right right

1331
00:45:49,990 --> 00:45:49,119
now that's 99 of science right but but

1332
00:45:51,910 --> 00:45:50,000
when you call up

1333
00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:51,920
something when you co-op something yeah

1334
00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:53,520
to do it you you don't

1335
00:45:58,309 --> 00:45:56,400
yep it's it's not like if you pick up

1336
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:58,319
what is your least favorite news source

1337
00:46:00,470 --> 00:46:00,000
i don't know you know pick your pick

1338
00:46:02,870 --> 00:46:00,480
your one

1339
00:46:04,230 --> 00:46:02,880
whether it's npr or fox or cnn i don't

1340
00:46:07,670 --> 00:46:04,240
know pick your one

1341
00:46:08,069 --> 00:46:07,680
it's not all fake right it's not all

1342
00:46:10,390 --> 00:46:08,079
fake

1343
00:46:11,109 --> 00:46:10,400
it's just most of it yeah it's just

1344
00:46:14,470 --> 00:46:11,119
shaded

1345
00:46:14,950 --> 00:46:14,480
you know if you want to know framing a

1346
00:46:16,710 --> 00:46:14,960
pitch

1347
00:46:19,030 --> 00:46:16,720
to make an umpire think a ball just off

1348
00:46:19,829 --> 00:46:19,040
the plate was actually catching the edge

1349
00:46:21,510 --> 00:46:19,839
of the plate yeah

1350
00:46:23,829 --> 00:46:21,520
exactly and how much do you know about

1351
00:46:26,230 --> 00:46:23,839
what's going on in north korea right now

1352
00:46:26,870 --> 00:46:26,240
i don't know if i wanted to know

1353
00:46:31,670 --> 00:46:26,880
nothing

1354
00:46:33,510 --> 00:46:31,680
so if i wanted to go read the official

1355
00:46:35,030 --> 00:46:33,520
kind of news source that's coming out of

1356
00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:35,040
north korea

1357
00:46:39,270 --> 00:46:37,440
that would have a lot more facts in it

1358
00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:39,280
than i would be able to give you about

1359
00:46:42,790 --> 00:46:40,480
north korea

1360
00:46:43,829 --> 00:46:42,800
but i belt you it's just full of

1361
00:46:46,870 --> 00:46:43,839
because i know it is

1362
00:46:49,270 --> 00:46:46,880
so i know it's i would assume so

1363
00:46:51,030 --> 00:46:49,280
well kim jong-il shot an 18 on his first

1364
00:46:52,870 --> 00:46:51,040
ever round of golf

1365
00:46:54,069 --> 00:46:52,880
so what does come out is enough for me

1366
00:46:57,030 --> 00:46:54,079
to say no

1367
00:46:57,750 --> 00:46:57,040
i just refuse to accept that that pudgy

1368
00:46:59,430 --> 00:46:57,760
16

1369
00:47:01,270 --> 00:46:59,440
60 year old was better at golf than

1370
00:47:03,750 --> 00:47:01,280
tiger woods i just so

1371
00:47:05,030 --> 00:47:03,760
i don't buy it so you know and and

1372
00:47:07,190 --> 00:47:05,040
that's all i'm saying about

1373
00:47:09,910 --> 00:47:07,200
science i mean of course you know we got

1374
00:47:10,390 --> 00:47:09,920
iphone we're on this all that works

1375
00:47:12,309 --> 00:47:10,400
but

1376
00:47:14,950 --> 00:47:12,319
so so the only thing is where i'm going

1377
00:47:17,829 --> 00:47:14,960
with that but where i'm going with that

1378
00:47:18,309 --> 00:47:17,839
is that because of a healthy skepticism

1379
00:47:20,710 --> 00:47:18,319
i mean

1380
00:47:21,910 --> 00:47:20,720
skepticism drives science it's why we do

1381
00:47:24,390 --> 00:47:21,920
it no

1382
00:47:24,950 --> 00:47:24,400
incorrect incorrect i have to jump in

1383
00:47:27,990 --> 00:47:24,960
there with that

1384
00:47:29,190 --> 00:47:28,000
no it isn't it is not necessary to be

1385
00:47:32,069 --> 00:47:29,200
skeptical

1386
00:47:33,030 --> 00:47:32,079
to do science all you have to do is do

1387
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:33,040
good science

1388
00:47:37,270 --> 00:47:35,280
it's like this idea that extraordinary

1389
00:47:38,950 --> 00:47:37,280
claims require extraordinary proof

1390
00:47:40,390 --> 00:47:38,960
that is meta science it is not

1391
00:47:43,349 --> 00:47:40,400
scientific method

1392
00:47:44,309 --> 00:47:43,359
just do the work just do the work just

1393
00:47:46,549 --> 00:47:44,319
do the science

1394
00:47:47,349 --> 00:47:46,559
if you believe something is true prove

1395
00:47:49,910 --> 00:47:47,359
it true

1396
00:47:50,390 --> 00:47:49,920
replicate it send it to another lab have

1397
00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:50,400
them

1398
00:47:54,230 --> 00:47:52,000
replicate it and everyone will

1399
00:47:54,870 --> 00:47:54,240
acknowledge that that is a move forward

1400
00:47:56,549 --> 00:47:54,880
in science

1401
00:47:59,109 --> 00:47:56,559
it doesn't matter if your starting

1402
00:48:00,870 --> 00:47:59,119
beliefs were skeptical or non-skeptical

1403
00:48:03,030 --> 00:48:00,880
talking about classical skepticism i

1404
00:48:04,390 --> 00:48:03,040
think you're talking about internet 2021

1405
00:48:07,870 --> 00:48:04,400
skepticism

1406
00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:07,880
of

1407
00:48:13,270 --> 00:48:11,200
evidence-based approach to the natural

1408
00:48:15,510 --> 00:48:13,280
physical world that dates back to

1409
00:48:16,790 --> 00:48:15,520
600 years before the time of christ

1410
00:48:20,069 --> 00:48:16,800
we're just talking about the scientific

1411
00:48:22,309 --> 00:48:20,079
method we'd better get on to just see

1412
00:48:23,270 --> 00:48:22,319
all of that though connects to moral

1413
00:48:25,270 --> 00:48:23,280
philosophy

1414
00:48:26,309 --> 00:48:25,280
and that's what it comes down to moral

1415
00:48:28,230 --> 00:48:26,319
philosophy

1416
00:48:30,309 --> 00:48:28,240
is either going to be a product of the

1417
00:48:32,390 --> 00:48:30,319
belief that people own their bodies and

1418
00:48:33,190 --> 00:48:32,400
have value because of consciousness and

1419
00:48:35,670 --> 00:48:33,200
some

1420
00:48:37,430 --> 00:48:35,680
intrinsic value that is bestowed upon us

1421
00:48:39,510 --> 00:48:37,440
by the universe by the maker of the

1422
00:48:42,630 --> 00:48:39,520
universe specifically by god

1423
00:48:44,390 --> 00:48:42,640
either there is some unique value held

1424
00:48:47,910 --> 00:48:44,400
by humans by merit of that

1425
00:48:49,589 --> 00:48:47,920
or we are robots in need of leadership

1426
00:48:50,870 --> 00:48:49,599
and guidance and being moved around on

1427
00:48:53,829 --> 00:48:50,880
the chessboard

1428
00:48:55,430 --> 00:48:53,839
the entire equation of moral philosophy

1429
00:48:56,950 --> 00:48:55,440
is completely different depending on

1430
00:48:57,589 --> 00:48:56,960
which one of those two assumptions you

1431
00:48:59,670 --> 00:48:57,599
come to

1432
00:49:01,349 --> 00:48:59,680
it sounds like you and i have arrived at

1433
00:49:03,510 --> 00:49:01,359
the belief that there is something

1434
00:49:04,870 --> 00:49:03,520
intrinsically valuable about people even

1435
00:49:06,390 --> 00:49:04,880
if we don't look like them

1436
00:49:08,230 --> 00:49:06,400
or sound like them or agree on

1437
00:49:10,710 --> 00:49:08,240
everything you still have value because

1438
00:49:12,230 --> 00:49:10,720
of this larger external truth

1439
00:49:13,990 --> 00:49:12,240
and we're not coming at that from the

1440
00:49:15,510 --> 00:49:14,000
same theological perspective but we're

1441
00:49:19,109 --> 00:49:15,520
arriving at that same

1442
00:49:22,069 --> 00:49:19,119
moral foundational position so rightly

1443
00:49:24,630 --> 00:49:22,079
people right now are putting a lot of

1444
00:49:27,670 --> 00:49:24,640
thought energy and discussion energy

1445
00:49:30,069 --> 00:49:27,680
into racial equality awesome

1446
00:49:31,910 --> 00:49:30,079
slavery is seen as as almost worse than

1447
00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:31,920
murder like the worst thing that ever

1448
00:49:36,230 --> 00:49:33,680
could have been done in all of history

1449
00:49:38,309 --> 00:49:36,240
it was pretty bad it was pretty bad but

1450
00:49:40,950 --> 00:49:38,319
when you start to push on that

1451
00:49:42,309 --> 00:49:40,960
you get to the depth quickly of where a

1452
00:49:43,750 --> 00:49:42,319
person is coming from in terms of their

1453
00:49:45,990 --> 00:49:43,760
moral philosophy

1454
00:49:48,069 --> 00:49:46,000
see the person who believes that moral

1455
00:49:49,109 --> 00:49:48,079
philosophy is a product of consensus and

1456
00:49:51,030 --> 00:49:49,119
once you

1457
00:49:52,790 --> 00:49:51,040
roll over that inflection point to where

1458
00:49:53,670 --> 00:49:52,800
one more than half of the people in a

1459
00:49:57,349 --> 00:49:53,680
society

1460
00:50:00,309 --> 00:49:57,359
say slavery is bad then it becomes bad

1461
00:50:02,309 --> 00:50:00,319
i they scare me i think slavery is bad

1462
00:50:05,910 --> 00:50:02,319
because it's intrinsically

1463
00:50:09,030 --> 00:50:05,920
evil it's evil to imagine that you can

1464
00:50:11,349 --> 00:50:09,040
buy sell trade even breed

1465
00:50:12,549 --> 00:50:11,359
another human being you don't own that

1466
00:50:14,150 --> 00:50:12,559
person's body

1467
00:50:16,470 --> 00:50:14,160
because they have consciousness and

1468
00:50:18,630 --> 00:50:16,480
value that is equal to mine so i just

1469
00:50:20,710 --> 00:50:18,640
i can't do that crap to you i can't take

1470
00:50:21,190 --> 00:50:20,720
your stuff i can't hurt you i can't kill

1471
00:50:24,390 --> 00:50:21,200
you

1472
00:50:25,270 --> 00:50:24,400
i certainly can't write a check to buy

1473
00:50:27,990 --> 00:50:25,280
you

1474
00:50:29,910 --> 00:50:28,000
it's it's an abomination before the

1475
00:50:30,790 --> 00:50:29,920
order of the universe and in my

1476
00:50:33,430 --> 00:50:30,800
conviction

1477
00:50:35,030 --> 00:50:33,440
before god now i'm not scared of a

1478
00:50:36,390 --> 00:50:35,040
person who arrives at that conclusion

1479
00:50:38,630 --> 00:50:36,400
through a completely different set of

1480
00:50:40,309 --> 00:50:38,640
theological assumptions than me

1481
00:50:42,470 --> 00:50:40,319
because there's a reason that they could

1482
00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:42,480
say this is why slavery is wrong

1483
00:50:45,670 --> 00:50:44,400
and even if i was the only person on

1484
00:50:48,470 --> 00:50:45,680
earth who said it was wrong

1485
00:50:51,109 --> 00:50:48,480
it's still wrong by merit of the nature

1486
00:50:54,390 --> 00:50:51,119
and order of existence in the universe

1487
00:50:56,549 --> 00:50:54,400
who scares me is the person who

1488
00:50:57,670 --> 00:50:56,559
citing science and being in love with

1489
00:50:59,349 --> 00:50:57,680
collectivism

1490
00:51:01,190 --> 00:50:59,359
and who diminishes the value of the

1491
00:51:04,069 --> 00:51:01,200
human effectively can

1492
00:51:05,349 --> 00:51:04,079
only say that that deplorable practice

1493
00:51:07,109 --> 00:51:05,359
is wrong

1494
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:07,119
because yeah we came around and finally

1495
00:51:11,190 --> 00:51:09,280
a majority of people said it was wrong

1496
00:51:12,710 --> 00:51:11,200
and we did some paperwork that changed

1497
00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:12,720
it from being right to wrong

1498
00:51:16,470 --> 00:51:14,160
and now it's wrong and it's just it's

1499
00:51:17,430 --> 00:51:16,480
just obvious well it wasn't always

1500
00:51:19,109 --> 00:51:17,440
obvious

1501
00:51:20,829 --> 00:51:19,119
like i need something more than we did

1502
00:51:23,190 --> 00:51:20,839
some paperwork and then it became

1503
00:51:24,870 --> 00:51:23,200
immoral as a foundation

1504
00:51:26,470 --> 00:51:24,880
as an assurance from the person i'm

1505
00:51:28,390 --> 00:51:26,480
talking to that if it becomes

1506
00:51:29,589 --> 00:51:28,400
fashionable to enslave people again we

1507
00:51:31,349 --> 00:51:29,599
won't do it again

1508
00:51:33,829 --> 00:51:31,359
like what if what what if we get to a

1509
00:51:35,430 --> 00:51:33,839
place where one more person than half

1510
00:51:37,190 --> 00:51:35,440
in our society is like nah we might want

1511
00:51:39,270 --> 00:51:37,200
to try slavery again

1512
00:51:40,710 --> 00:51:39,280
does that suddenly make it right have

1513
00:51:43,270 --> 00:51:40,720
you lost your mind

1514
00:51:44,950 --> 00:51:43,280
of course not but it's stunning when you

1515
00:51:46,549 --> 00:51:44,960
get into conversations with

1516
00:51:48,390 --> 00:51:46,559
people who are otherwise very reasonable

1517
00:51:51,750 --> 00:51:48,400
and likable when you push

1518
00:51:54,150 --> 00:51:51,760
on that moral philosophical foundation

1519
00:51:56,150 --> 00:51:54,160
you get into some crazy dark stuff

1520
00:51:59,430 --> 00:51:56,160
because you realize

1521
00:52:00,309 --> 00:51:59,440
there is no foundational conviction or

1522
00:52:01,990 --> 00:52:00,319
belief

1523
00:52:04,069 --> 00:52:02,000
that would cause them to see a value of

1524
00:52:05,430 --> 00:52:04,079
a human that inspires their ethic of how

1525
00:52:07,109 --> 00:52:05,440
to interact with others

1526
00:52:09,349 --> 00:52:07,119
or what might make something right or

1527
00:52:11,910 --> 00:52:09,359
wrong and so when we talk about

1528
00:52:12,710 --> 00:52:11,920
when we inch our way toward state

1529
00:52:16,390 --> 00:52:12,720
coercion

1530
00:52:18,069 --> 00:52:16,400
and the strategies and and mind jobiness

1531
00:52:19,430 --> 00:52:18,079
of the romans and all of this that we're

1532
00:52:21,349 --> 00:52:19,440
going to unpack

1533
00:52:22,790 --> 00:52:21,359
i still think all of that is undergirded

1534
00:52:24,470 --> 00:52:22,800
by moral philosophy

1535
00:52:26,630 --> 00:52:24,480
and the foundational assumptions that

1536
00:52:29,270 --> 00:52:26,640
anybody in this conversation right now

1537
00:52:30,790 --> 00:52:29,280
2 000 years ago that anybody has about

1538
00:52:32,230 --> 00:52:30,800
the nature of humanity

1539
00:52:33,990 --> 00:52:32,240
and one of the places where i appreciate

1540
00:52:36,470 --> 00:52:34,000
the collegiality we share

1541
00:52:37,270 --> 00:52:36,480
is that through very different processes

1542
00:52:39,430 --> 00:52:37,280
we both think

1543
00:52:42,630 --> 00:52:39,440
people have some kind of value that

1544
00:52:45,510 --> 00:52:42,640
shapes our moral decision making

1545
00:52:45,990 --> 00:52:45,520
that was quite beautiful and really

1546
00:52:48,150 --> 00:52:46,000
really well

1547
00:52:49,190 --> 00:52:48,160
said again if i pick on things because

1548
00:52:51,990 --> 00:52:49,200
that's what i like to do

1549
00:52:53,109 --> 00:52:52,000
pick what we're here to do the last part

1550
00:52:54,549 --> 00:52:53,119
of that

1551
00:52:56,790 --> 00:52:54,559
you know i think it's part of the

1552
00:52:58,630 --> 00:52:56,800
brainwashing to say the nature of

1553
00:53:01,910 --> 00:52:58,640
humanity

1554
00:53:05,190 --> 00:53:01,920
i just go and follow the data and say

1555
00:53:06,790 --> 00:53:05,200
consciousness exists because science

1556
00:53:09,750 --> 00:53:06,800
proves it does

1557
00:53:11,109 --> 00:53:09,760
extended consciousness seems to exist

1558
00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:11,119
overwhelmingly the best

1559
00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:13,680
evidence we have suggests that it does

1560
00:53:16,309 --> 00:53:15,119
so the burden of proof would be on

1561
00:53:18,309 --> 00:53:16,319
someone to say that

1562
00:53:19,990 --> 00:53:18,319
extended consciousness doesn't it

1563
00:53:21,990 --> 00:53:20,000
doesn't exist

1564
00:53:23,910 --> 00:53:22,000
once we get into that realm what we find

1565
00:53:26,069 --> 00:53:23,920
people consistently coming back and

1566
00:53:28,630 --> 00:53:26,079
saying yeah there's a moral imperative

1567
00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:28,640
deal with it it's called god for lack of

1568
00:53:32,230 --> 00:53:30,400
a better term you can call it god spirit

1569
00:53:34,309 --> 00:53:32,240
light you can call it whatever you want

1570
00:53:37,109 --> 00:53:34,319
there are these guys who bullshitted us

1571
00:53:39,589 --> 00:53:37,119
through all this nonsense of

1572
00:53:41,349 --> 00:53:39,599
social construct it's a social construct

1573
00:53:45,109 --> 00:53:41,359
it's not a social construct

1574
00:53:47,510 --> 00:53:45,119
no if you're all alone if it's 51

1575
00:53:48,950 --> 00:53:47,520
vote or if you're sitting alone in a

1576
00:53:51,990 --> 00:53:48,960
tent in

1577
00:53:54,710 --> 00:53:52,000
a hut in thailand you know

1578
00:53:56,309 --> 00:53:54,720
doing your yoga sutras you're coming to

1579
00:53:59,510 --> 00:53:56,319
the same conclusion

1580
00:54:01,829 --> 00:53:59,520
without the 51 because it's just

1581
00:54:03,030 --> 00:54:01,839
it's a moral imperative it's who you are

1582
00:54:05,589 --> 00:54:03,040
at this

1583
00:54:07,109 --> 00:54:05,599
extended consciousness level i love what

1584
00:54:08,230 --> 00:54:07,119
you just said though about the burden of

1585
00:54:11,349 --> 00:54:08,240
proof

1586
00:54:13,510 --> 00:54:11,359
because the stakes here are

1587
00:54:15,349 --> 00:54:13,520
are very high and so for example i

1588
00:54:16,549 --> 00:54:15,359
remember when i went through driver's ed

1589
00:54:18,549 --> 00:54:16,559
there was a question on there was like

1590
00:54:20,150 --> 00:54:18,559
if you see a cardboard box

1591
00:54:22,150 --> 00:54:20,160
on the road and you're pretty sure it's

1592
00:54:23,430 --> 00:54:22,160
empty would it be okay to hit that

1593
00:54:25,829 --> 00:54:23,440
and i was like well yeah you're pretty

1594
00:54:27,510 --> 00:54:25,839
sure it's empty yes i got it wrong

1595
00:54:29,510 --> 00:54:27,520
and the uh the person teaching the class

1596
00:54:31,430 --> 00:54:29,520
was like well no cause

1597
00:54:32,710 --> 00:54:31,440
it's a mystery box you don't know what

1598
00:54:34,150 --> 00:54:32,720
is in the box

1599
00:54:36,470 --> 00:54:34,160
there's a chance something you don't

1600
00:54:39,270 --> 00:54:36,480
want to hurt or kill is in the box

1601
00:54:40,950 --> 00:54:39,280
therefore if you don't know it's worth

1602
00:54:43,190 --> 00:54:40,960
making the move with your wheel in any

1603
00:54:45,990 --> 00:54:43,200
way possible to avoid hitting that

1604
00:54:47,829 --> 00:54:46,000
likewise i think the burden of proof is

1605
00:54:49,270 --> 00:54:47,839
on the person who says no it's okay to

1606
00:54:52,150 --> 00:54:49,280
make central moves that involve

1607
00:54:54,230 --> 00:54:52,160
mass death or curtailing of freedom or

1608
00:54:55,510 --> 00:54:54,240
life or rights or anything

1609
00:54:57,829 --> 00:54:55,520
because we're pretty sure there's not

1610
00:54:58,230 --> 00:54:57,839
consciousness who the burden of proof is

1611
00:55:01,030 --> 00:54:58,240
on

1612
00:55:03,030 --> 00:55:01,040
dramatically shapes what is and is not

1613
00:55:06,309 --> 00:55:03,040
acceptable policy

1614
00:55:07,190 --> 00:55:06,319
because on the outside chance that you

1615
00:55:10,230 --> 00:55:07,200
alex are an

1616
00:55:13,990 --> 00:55:10,240
actual conscious being with

1617
00:55:16,230 --> 00:55:14,000
value uh even if i'm only like 95

1618
00:55:17,589 --> 00:55:16,240
sure you're not and that you are just a

1619
00:55:19,190 --> 00:55:17,599
meat bag robot

1620
00:55:20,950 --> 00:55:19,200
there's still a five percent chance that

1621
00:55:23,910 --> 00:55:20,960
if i mess with you i am

1622
00:55:25,990 --> 00:55:23,920
violating that which gives me value i am

1623
00:55:29,190 --> 00:55:26,000
violating a peer and a

1624
00:55:31,190 --> 00:55:29,200
a transcendent beautiful

1625
00:55:32,549 --> 00:55:31,200
fluke or ordered component of the

1626
00:55:35,910 --> 00:55:32,559
universe

1627
00:55:37,109 --> 00:55:35,920
i mean your threshold of action against

1628
00:55:39,670 --> 00:55:37,119
another person and

1629
00:55:41,349 --> 00:55:39,680
certainty that there is nothing to them

1630
00:55:43,829 --> 00:55:41,359
i it's got to be a hundred percent and

1631
00:55:46,230 --> 00:55:43,839
it's got to be demonstrable

1632
00:55:47,190 --> 00:55:46,240
you just i'm not gonna go if kids are

1633
00:55:48,710 --> 00:55:47,200
playing behind

1634
00:55:50,549 --> 00:55:48,720
the curtains at the tennis center where

1635
00:55:51,030 --> 00:55:50,559
i work out i'm not going to go up there

1636
00:55:53,030 --> 00:55:51,040
and

1637
00:55:55,190 --> 00:55:53,040
know that yeah i probably won't stab any

1638
00:55:56,789 --> 00:55:55,200
kids and run a big long blade through

1639
00:55:59,270 --> 00:55:56,799
that curtain in a couple places this is

1640
00:56:00,390 --> 00:55:59,280
a very low chance i'm going to get them

1641
00:56:02,150 --> 00:56:00,400
i'm just not going to do it on the

1642
00:56:02,870 --> 00:56:02,160
outside chance that i mean the kids back

1643
00:56:04,470 --> 00:56:02,880
there

1644
00:56:06,069 --> 00:56:04,480
i think the same logic applies and i

1645
00:56:07,990 --> 00:56:06,079
think the burden of proof

1646
00:56:10,309 --> 00:56:08,000
in this case is not just a semantic

1647
00:56:12,309 --> 00:56:10,319
throw away i don't sense laziness on

1648
00:56:15,589 --> 00:56:12,319
your part i think it has

1649
00:56:17,589 --> 00:56:15,599
serious moral implications as to whom

1650
00:56:19,510 --> 00:56:17,599
the burden of proof is assigned and i

1651
00:56:24,230 --> 00:56:19,520
agree with your assessment

1652
00:56:26,309 --> 00:56:24,240
okay so matt who was

1653
00:56:28,390 --> 00:56:26,319
pontius pilate historical proof in

1654
00:56:31,510 --> 00:56:28,400
legends so i just for folks who are

1655
00:56:32,069 --> 00:56:31,520
interested i pulled up really good video

1656
00:56:34,710 --> 00:56:32,079
you did

1657
00:56:35,750 --> 00:56:34,720
really really great video man high

1658
00:56:38,789 --> 00:56:35,760
quality stuff

1659
00:56:40,789 --> 00:56:38,799
but on youtube why

1660
00:56:43,190 --> 00:56:40,799
first of all fill people in on the

1661
00:56:45,829 --> 00:56:43,200
background why do this video

1662
00:56:46,870 --> 00:56:45,839
what what is this about on that level

1663
00:56:51,270 --> 00:56:46,880
and then

1664
00:56:55,349 --> 00:56:51,280
tear it apart

1665
00:56:57,430 --> 00:56:55,359
yeah perfect sounds good good luck so

1666
00:56:59,190 --> 00:56:57,440
the the thing about pontius pilate is

1667
00:57:01,030 --> 00:56:59,200
he's one of three names

1668
00:57:02,950 --> 00:57:01,040
that comes up in one of the most

1669
00:57:05,670 --> 00:57:02,960
foundational oft repeated

1670
00:57:06,230 --> 00:57:05,680
christian statements of belief one of

1671
00:57:08,470 --> 00:57:06,240
the

1672
00:57:09,430 --> 00:57:08,480
foundational creeds it's called within

1673
00:57:11,510 --> 00:57:09,440
christianity

1674
00:57:12,549 --> 00:57:11,520
mentions three human characters mary

1675
00:57:15,990 --> 00:57:12,559
jesus and

1676
00:57:19,270 --> 00:57:16,000
pontius pilate so pontius pilate is this

1677
00:57:21,109 --> 00:57:19,280
this very important character in the new

1678
00:57:22,230 --> 00:57:21,119
testament he comes up in the gospels the

1679
00:57:24,630 --> 00:57:22,240
accounts of the life

1680
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:24,640
and the deeds and death and resurrection

1681
00:57:28,789 --> 00:57:25,760
of jesus

1682
00:57:31,910 --> 00:57:28,799
he is the local roman governor of

1683
00:57:34,789 --> 00:57:31,920
judea the roman client king

1684
00:57:36,870 --> 00:57:34,799
state of judea which had been so since

1685
00:57:37,670 --> 00:57:36,880
pompe the great rolled in in the middle

1686
00:57:40,710 --> 00:57:37,680
of the first

1687
00:57:42,069 --> 00:57:40,720
century bc and the way this works for

1688
00:57:44,470 --> 00:57:42,079
people who aren't in the know is this

1689
00:57:46,630 --> 00:57:44,480
client king system meant that you've got

1690
00:57:47,670 --> 00:57:46,640
local ethnic governorship so a lot of

1691
00:57:48,470 --> 00:57:47,680
people are probably like wait wasn't

1692
00:57:50,950 --> 00:57:48,480
herod

1693
00:57:53,190 --> 00:57:50,960
the guy who governed judea well the

1694
00:57:55,670 --> 00:57:53,200
answer is yes the herod family

1695
00:57:56,549 --> 00:57:55,680
wielded tremendous influence as a local

1696
00:57:58,789 --> 00:57:56,559
indigenous

1697
00:57:59,589 --> 00:57:58,799
ethnic ruler as was the habit of the

1698
00:58:01,910 --> 00:57:59,599
romans when

1699
00:58:03,910 --> 00:58:01,920
setting up a client king state and he

1700
00:58:05,589 --> 00:58:03,920
operated in partnership with a different

1701
00:58:07,910 --> 00:58:05,599
list of responsibilities

1702
00:58:09,109 --> 00:58:07,920
and jurisdiction than the roman governor

1703
00:58:11,349 --> 00:58:09,119
who was present

1704
00:58:12,870 --> 00:58:11,359
and in this case a guy who would

1705
00:58:15,829 --> 00:58:12,880
otherwise have a pretty

1706
00:58:17,910 --> 00:58:15,839
forgettable tenure as governor of this

1707
00:58:19,670 --> 00:58:17,920
roman state of judea

1708
00:58:21,190 --> 00:58:19,680
is the most famous one ever the one

1709
00:58:22,069 --> 00:58:21,200
everybody can name and that's pontius

1710
00:58:24,710 --> 00:58:22,079
pilate

1711
00:58:26,710 --> 00:58:24,720
mid-20s to mid 30s a.d is the time frame

1712
00:58:28,870 --> 00:58:26,720
we're talking about here

1713
00:58:30,150 --> 00:58:28,880
he's a political no namer from a

1714
00:58:33,270 --> 00:58:30,160
political no-name

1715
00:58:35,030 --> 00:58:33,280
family in a region called samnia just a

1716
00:58:38,230 --> 00:58:35,040
few clicks outside of

1717
00:58:38,950 --> 00:58:38,240
modern day rome his name is even

1718
00:58:40,470 --> 00:58:38,960
confusing

1719
00:58:42,390 --> 00:58:40,480
it might have been that he was

1720
00:58:45,270 --> 00:58:42,400
militarily effective with a

1721
00:58:47,109 --> 00:58:45,280
pike a pillion i don't know we don't

1722
00:58:49,510 --> 00:58:47,119
really have anything to compare it to

1723
00:58:51,750 --> 00:58:49,520
the the only theory i can develop for

1724
00:58:52,710 --> 00:58:51,760
how he gained a prominent position like

1725
00:58:55,430 --> 00:58:52,720
this

1726
00:58:56,870 --> 00:58:55,440
was an association with a political

1727
00:58:59,990 --> 00:58:56,880
benefactor named

1728
00:59:02,309 --> 00:59:00,000
sajanus this sajanu's character was

1729
00:59:04,069 --> 00:59:02,319
duplicitous and he has janus in his name

1730
00:59:05,829 --> 00:59:04,079
the two-facedness is right there i don't

1731
00:59:08,789 --> 00:59:05,839
know how anybody missed it at the time

1732
00:59:10,549 --> 00:59:08,799
but the sajnus guy curried favor with a

1733
00:59:12,870 --> 00:59:10,559
couple of different courts particularly

1734
00:59:15,910 --> 00:59:12,880
with the emperor tiberius

1735
00:59:17,990 --> 00:59:15,920
and it looks as though at least some

1736
00:59:21,109 --> 00:59:18,000
contemporary sources

1737
00:59:23,430 --> 00:59:21,119
ascribe anti-semitic motivations as well

1738
00:59:26,230 --> 00:59:23,440
as obviously politically upwardly mobile

1739
00:59:27,270 --> 00:59:26,240
motivations to the sajnu's character and

1740
00:59:29,670 --> 00:59:27,280
so

1741
00:59:32,230 --> 00:59:29,680
my theory goes that he thought pilate

1742
00:59:35,430 --> 00:59:32,240
was politically weak enough familially

1743
00:59:38,549 --> 00:59:35,440
unconnected enough that he was someone

1744
00:59:40,630 --> 00:59:38,559
who sejanus who was sitting in for an

1745
00:59:42,390 --> 00:59:40,640
absentee emperor in tiberius who just

1746
00:59:44,549 --> 00:59:42,400
wanted to do booze and sex parties on

1747
00:59:46,150 --> 00:59:44,559
the isle of capri down by naples

1748
00:59:47,349 --> 00:59:46,160
and wasn't really focused on governing

1749
00:59:48,069 --> 00:59:47,359
for a period of time in the middle of

1750
00:59:50,789 --> 00:59:48,079
his reign

1751
00:59:53,030 --> 00:59:50,799
i think sajanus hand-picked this pilot

1752
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:53,040
guy because he was controllable

1753
00:59:57,109 --> 00:59:55,890
i think he sent him to judea to

1754
00:59:59,990 --> 00:59:57,119
[Music]

1755
01:00:02,150 --> 01:00:00,000
carry out whatever political motivations

1756
01:00:02,710 --> 01:00:02,160
sajnu's had i'm not totally convinced on

1757
01:00:05,670 --> 01:00:02,720
the

1758
01:00:06,390 --> 01:00:05,680
anti-semitism charges and i don't think

1759
01:00:07,829 --> 01:00:06,400
pilate

1760
01:00:09,990 --> 01:00:07,839
was up for it i think it gave him a

1761
01:00:11,990 --> 01:00:10,000
complex i think he

1762
01:00:13,910 --> 01:00:12,000
always felt like he needed to

1763
01:00:15,589 --> 01:00:13,920
demonstrate that he was a real boy who

1764
01:00:17,750 --> 01:00:15,599
really earned this job

1765
01:00:19,349 --> 01:00:17,760
and he okay but matt he killed he he

1766
01:00:20,950 --> 01:00:19,359
sentences jesus to death

1767
01:00:22,789 --> 01:00:20,960
right i mean that's why we all have a

1768
01:00:26,630 --> 01:00:22,799
bunch of other political blunders

1769
01:00:28,630 --> 01:00:26,640
yeah so you know in the

1770
01:00:29,910 --> 01:00:28,640
in the youtube one of the things that

1771
01:00:33,109 --> 01:00:29,920
you go through

1772
01:00:33,829 --> 01:00:33,119
in in very you know snappy little

1773
01:00:36,870 --> 01:00:33,839
fashion

1774
01:00:38,230 --> 01:00:36,880
is how we know what we know and one of

1775
01:00:41,750 --> 01:00:38,240
the first things you come to

1776
01:00:44,230 --> 01:00:41,760
is our friend flavius josephus

1777
01:00:46,069 --> 01:00:44,240
and yes you do that in not a super

1778
01:00:49,190 --> 01:00:46,079
controversial way you just say

1779
01:00:49,670 --> 01:00:49,200
here is the guy well you tell us who do

1780
01:00:52,069 --> 01:00:49,680
you

1781
01:00:54,069 --> 01:00:52,079
understand flavius josephus to be

1782
01:00:56,710 --> 01:00:54,079
because i have a very different

1783
01:00:58,789 --> 01:00:56,720
understanding of who he is based on the

1784
01:01:02,230 --> 01:00:58,799
data nothing about him seems maybe

1785
01:01:05,349 --> 01:01:02,240
the least bit believable he is a

1786
01:01:06,789 --> 01:01:05,359
top to bottom roman propaganda agent and

1787
01:01:07,829 --> 01:01:06,799
really can't be understood to be

1788
01:01:11,270 --> 01:01:07,839
anything else

1789
01:01:15,670 --> 01:01:11,280
in my opinion he probably sold

1790
01:01:15,990 --> 01:01:15,680
his information to vespasian rather than

1791
01:01:18,870 --> 01:01:16,000
this

1792
01:01:20,630 --> 01:01:18,880
wacky story about he prophesied that

1793
01:01:22,630 --> 01:01:20,640
he'd be emperor and that somehow got him

1794
01:01:25,510 --> 01:01:22,640
yes

1795
01:01:26,710 --> 01:01:25,520
of course that's nonsense so yeah okay

1796
01:01:29,030 --> 01:01:26,720
let me speak to that

1797
01:01:30,549 --> 01:01:29,040
um i do disagree with you and i think i

1798
01:01:32,630 --> 01:01:30,559
can make a good case for it but

1799
01:01:34,150 --> 01:01:32,640
uh ultimately the fate of earth doesn't

1800
01:01:36,829 --> 01:01:34,160
hinge on what we make of flavius

1801
01:01:39,990 --> 01:01:36,839
josephus so i think we're gonna have fun

1802
01:01:43,190 --> 01:01:40,000
the josephus is a jewish guy

1803
01:01:46,390 --> 01:01:43,200
um oh uh

1804
01:01:49,109 --> 01:01:46,400
joseph ben mata

1805
01:01:50,069 --> 01:01:49,119
yeah yeah sometimes his name is acidic

1806
01:01:53,349 --> 01:01:50,079
it's not mata

1807
01:01:55,029 --> 01:01:53,359
but it sounds like that um flavius is

1808
01:01:57,190 --> 01:01:55,039
obviously a latin name that he receives

1809
01:02:00,309 --> 01:01:57,200
later on after currying favor with

1810
01:02:02,069 --> 01:02:00,319
a couple of roman courts and

1811
01:02:03,750 --> 01:02:02,079
so he's a jewish guy during a time of

1812
01:02:05,750 --> 01:02:03,760
tremendous turmoil

1813
01:02:07,589 --> 01:02:05,760
at times he seems to be aligned with the

1814
01:02:10,150 --> 01:02:07,599
more conservative

1815
01:02:12,150 --> 01:02:10,160
miracle-believing pharisee sect at times

1816
01:02:14,950 --> 01:02:12,160
he seems to be aligned with the more

1817
01:02:17,109 --> 01:02:14,960
liberal hellenizing that is greekifying

1818
01:02:18,470 --> 01:02:17,119
let's roll with the culture

1819
01:02:21,190 --> 01:02:18,480
more like the equivalent of your main

1820
01:02:23,510 --> 01:02:21,200
mind churches type of sect at times

1821
01:02:25,109 --> 01:02:23,520
it looks like he's more aligned with the

1822
01:02:26,789 --> 01:02:25,119
qumran crowd the people out

1823
01:02:28,950 --> 01:02:26,799
the escapists who went out to the dead

1824
01:02:30,630 --> 01:02:28,960
sea and give us the dead sea scrolls or

1825
01:02:32,470 --> 01:02:30,640
a large percentage of them

1826
01:02:34,549 --> 01:02:32,480
were more aesthetic in their lifestyle

1827
01:02:35,589 --> 01:02:34,559
and were kind of rejectionist of all of

1828
01:02:38,549 --> 01:02:35,599
this

1829
01:02:39,910 --> 01:02:38,559
his thoughts let me interject one piece

1830
01:02:43,109 --> 01:02:39,920
on what you just said

1831
01:02:46,150 --> 01:02:43,119
because this is also to me telltale

1832
01:02:47,910 --> 01:02:46,160
fake josephus right there was no one who

1833
01:02:48,470 --> 01:02:47,920
was friendly to all those different

1834
01:02:50,230 --> 01:02:48,480
sects

1835
01:02:51,829 --> 01:02:50,240
those people were completely at odds

1836
01:02:54,230 --> 01:02:51,839
they were killing each other as

1837
01:02:56,069 --> 01:02:54,240
as they ultimately go in and siege you

1838
01:02:57,670 --> 01:02:56,079
know jerusalem and

1839
01:02:59,349 --> 01:02:57,680
attack the temple those guys are still

1840
01:03:00,230 --> 01:02:59,359
killing each other within the group so

1841
01:03:03,990 --> 01:03:00,240
his id

1842
01:03:06,390 --> 01:03:04,000
his claim you know go to the preface of

1843
01:03:07,829 --> 01:03:06,400
war are the jews this book primarily

1844
01:03:10,069 --> 01:03:07,839
we're going to talk about the josephus

1845
01:03:11,750 --> 01:03:10,079
very important to note that is his first

1846
01:03:15,029 --> 01:03:11,760
book yes it is right

1847
01:03:16,710 --> 01:03:15,039
very important very important

1848
01:03:18,950 --> 01:03:16,720
very important to note his preface to

1849
01:03:21,990 --> 01:03:18,960
that which says you know what

1850
01:03:23,990 --> 01:03:22,000
there's a lot of bad history out there

1851
01:03:25,750 --> 01:03:24,000
so i'm going to straighten all that out

1852
01:03:27,829 --> 01:03:25,760
rely on me

1853
01:03:29,750 --> 01:03:27,839
i'm going to tell you the truth no

1854
01:03:32,069 --> 01:03:29,760
matter who gets hurt in it

1855
01:03:33,910 --> 01:03:32,079
and then he says of course i'm gonna he

1856
01:03:36,069 --> 01:03:33,920
says i'm gonna tell you the truth about

1857
01:03:37,670 --> 01:03:36,079
the glorious romans

1858
01:03:39,029 --> 01:03:37,680
and about these other folks that you

1859
01:03:40,710 --> 01:03:39,039
know were pretty june the best they

1860
01:03:43,750 --> 01:03:40,720
could to called the jews

1861
01:03:44,390 --> 01:03:43,760
but he then goes about lying in jewish

1862
01:03:47,990 --> 01:03:44,400
wars

1863
01:03:49,109 --> 01:03:48,000
because antiquities reads very

1864
01:03:51,510 --> 01:03:49,119
differently

1865
01:03:53,589 --> 01:03:51,520
which is kind of does it doesn't help

1866
01:03:55,510 --> 01:03:53,599
the claim that this guy is trustworthy

1867
01:03:57,510 --> 01:03:55,520
right it does not help the claim

1868
01:03:58,950 --> 01:03:57,520
that he has he sees things differently

1869
01:03:59,829 --> 01:03:58,960
which is right i think you're making

1870
01:04:01,750 --> 01:03:59,839
alex

1871
01:04:03,589 --> 01:04:01,760
well hold on hold on because we got to

1872
01:04:05,829 --> 01:04:03,599
build it we've got to build a

1873
01:04:06,950 --> 01:04:05,839
piece we got to build it piece by piece

1874
01:04:11,029 --> 01:04:06,960
and that is that

1875
01:04:11,589 --> 01:04:11,039
josephus is telling you believe me trust

1876
01:04:13,829 --> 01:04:11,599
me

1877
01:04:14,789 --> 01:04:13,839
and then he's saying stuff that is

1878
01:04:17,829 --> 01:04:14,799
completely

1879
01:04:19,109 --> 01:04:17,839
trustworthy

1880
01:04:21,190 --> 01:04:19,119
one of the things you just alluded to

1881
01:04:24,710 --> 01:04:21,200
his lenses to understand him through

1882
01:04:26,870 --> 01:04:24,720
well let me make my case let me make

1883
01:04:27,829 --> 01:04:26,880
no let me make my case and then you can

1884
01:04:29,109 --> 01:04:27,839
you can alright right on right

1885
01:04:32,069 --> 01:04:29,119
contradict okay

1886
01:04:32,549 --> 01:04:32,079
but the the reason i don't see it that

1887
01:04:34,390 --> 01:04:32,559
way

1888
01:04:36,230 --> 01:04:34,400
is like even the point that you just

1889
01:04:38,069 --> 01:04:36,240
made about him being in all these

1890
01:04:40,950 --> 01:04:38,079
different sects

1891
01:04:43,109 --> 01:04:40,960
read it i read it from my perspective

1892
01:04:43,910 --> 01:04:43,119
which is this guy's purely a propaganda

1893
01:04:45,910 --> 01:04:43,920
agent

1894
01:04:47,430 --> 01:04:45,920
if you read it from that perspective it

1895
01:04:49,349 --> 01:04:47,440
totally makes sense

1896
01:04:51,349 --> 01:04:49,359
because it fits in with this other thing

1897
01:04:54,069 --> 01:04:51,359
that he claims is that he's a super jew

1898
01:04:55,270 --> 01:04:54,079
right he says hey i'm friends with all

1899
01:04:58,309 --> 01:04:55,280
these different sects they

1900
01:05:01,750 --> 01:04:58,319
highly respect me and he says by the way

1901
01:05:02,789 --> 01:05:01,760
i know the law you know jewish law at 14

1902
01:05:05,109 --> 01:05:02,799
i was in the temple

1903
01:05:06,950 --> 01:05:05,119
and i was telling those old rabbis and

1904
01:05:08,230 --> 01:05:06,960
they all sat down and bended me and

1905
01:05:11,510 --> 01:05:08,240
listen to me because

1906
01:05:14,230 --> 01:05:11,520
i knew the whole thing luke 2. well

1907
01:05:16,390 --> 01:05:14,240
this is josephus's account right so his

1908
01:05:17,829 --> 01:05:16,400
preface says hey

1909
01:05:19,750 --> 01:05:17,839
trust me everything i'm going to tell

1910
01:05:20,950 --> 01:05:19,760
you don't list those other historians

1911
01:05:22,549 --> 01:05:20,960
they kind of make stuff up they

1912
01:05:23,349 --> 01:05:22,559
exaggerate they play one side i'm going

1913
01:05:24,870 --> 01:05:23,359
to tell you the truth

1914
01:05:26,950 --> 01:05:24,880
and then he goes on to tell you these

1915
01:05:28,470 --> 01:05:26,960
things and like the thing i always point

1916
01:05:28,870 --> 01:05:28,480
out i have in a couple of shows here is

1917
01:05:31,750 --> 01:05:28,880
that

1918
01:05:32,630 --> 01:05:31,760
if you talk to people now who are

1919
01:05:34,950 --> 01:05:32,640
scholarly

1920
01:05:36,630 --> 01:05:34,960
in the jewish cult what felt and they've

1921
01:05:37,750 --> 01:05:36,640
read the law and all that stuff what

1922
01:05:40,710 --> 01:05:37,760
they'll tell you is

1923
01:05:42,150 --> 01:05:40,720
josephus kind of contradicts himself he

1924
01:05:43,829 --> 01:05:42,160
says he knows the law

1925
01:05:45,270 --> 01:05:43,839
quote unquote and then he doesn't he

1926
01:05:45,910 --> 01:05:45,280
demonstrates by his writing that he

1927
01:05:49,270 --> 01:05:45,920
doesn't

1928
01:05:51,270 --> 01:05:49,280
really know the law so again my claim is

1929
01:05:54,069 --> 01:05:51,280
that the only way to really

1930
01:05:57,109 --> 01:05:54,079
understand josephus is as a roman

1931
01:06:01,990 --> 01:05:57,119
propaganda agent

1932
01:06:02,950 --> 01:06:02,000
okay okay first of all

1933
01:06:04,870 --> 01:06:02,960
i think you're headed for a

1934
01:06:06,390 --> 01:06:04,880
disappointment on this because i think

1935
01:06:09,109 --> 01:06:06,400
you're assuming that i'm more optimistic

1936
01:06:12,230 --> 01:06:09,119
about josephus than i actually am

1937
01:06:13,029 --> 01:06:12,240
i don't feel like anything about my

1938
01:06:16,150 --> 01:06:13,039
faith or

1939
01:06:18,870 --> 01:06:16,160
belief in any way hinges on josephus

1940
01:06:19,510 --> 01:06:18,880
the one excerpt that was often cited

1941
01:06:23,270 --> 01:06:19,520
through

1942
01:06:27,029 --> 01:06:23,280
right on up into the 19th 20th century

1943
01:06:29,829 --> 01:06:27,039
from josephus regarding jesus is clearly

1944
01:06:30,230 --> 01:06:29,839
a later edition there are elements of

1945
01:06:34,230 --> 01:06:30,240
that

1946
01:06:36,069 --> 01:06:34,240
early manuscript evidence seems to

1947
01:06:38,230 --> 01:06:36,079
support the idea that josephus

1948
01:06:40,789 --> 01:06:38,240
somewhere in there acknowledged jesus in

1949
01:06:44,069 --> 01:06:40,799
a few of the foundational details

1950
01:06:45,190 --> 01:06:44,079
that would have been accepted as common

1951
01:06:47,270 --> 01:06:45,200
historical fact

1952
01:06:48,789 --> 01:06:47,280
at that time however the more

1953
01:06:51,190 --> 01:06:48,799
embellished version that seems to

1954
01:06:52,870 --> 01:06:51,200
support christian theology

1955
01:06:54,470 --> 01:06:52,880
i think even though i'd like it if

1956
01:06:57,029 --> 01:06:54,480
josephus wrote that it would be

1957
01:06:58,710 --> 01:06:57,039
wonderful for my case as somebody who

1958
01:06:59,109 --> 01:06:58,720
thinks that jesus is legitimate and that

1959
01:07:02,390 --> 01:06:59,119
the

1960
01:07:03,829 --> 01:07:02,400
religion is filled with answers i still

1961
01:07:05,990 --> 01:07:03,839
have to be loyal to the data because

1962
01:07:08,230 --> 01:07:06,000
eyes wide open faith the data

1963
01:07:10,870 --> 01:07:08,240
doesn't support that that more robust

1964
01:07:13,589 --> 01:07:10,880
version of josephus's account of jesus

1965
01:07:15,510 --> 01:07:13,599
is defensible so i don't think it is

1966
01:07:16,069 --> 01:07:15,520
josephus is somebody who does not

1967
01:07:18,710 --> 01:07:16,079
provide

1968
01:07:21,029 --> 01:07:18,720
value first and foremost because

1969
01:07:23,270 --> 01:07:21,039
everything he said was true

1970
01:07:25,029 --> 01:07:23,280
anyone who's read josephus can tell this

1971
01:07:28,150 --> 01:07:25,039
is compromised history

1972
01:07:30,870 --> 01:07:28,160
josephus provides value if

1973
01:07:31,910 --> 01:07:30,880
we work with him through those lenses

1974
01:07:33,990 --> 01:07:31,920
okay of okay

1975
01:07:35,589 --> 01:07:34,000
who is this guy what's he doing what

1976
01:07:37,190 --> 01:07:35,599
could you get away with what could you

1977
01:07:38,069 --> 01:07:37,200
actually write and still have this

1978
01:07:39,670 --> 01:07:38,079
published

1979
01:07:42,150 --> 01:07:39,680
and still have people view it as worth

1980
01:07:43,109 --> 01:07:42,160
preserving or circulating and who was

1981
01:07:45,349 --> 01:07:43,119
preserving it and

1982
01:07:46,789 --> 01:07:45,359
who was circulating it i think also the

1983
01:07:48,789 --> 01:07:46,799
wrong question

1984
01:07:49,990 --> 01:07:48,799
the question is is he a propaganda agent

1985
01:07:51,589 --> 01:07:50,000
because if you're a propaganda

1986
01:07:53,589 --> 01:07:51,599
well if he is then that points to the

1987
01:07:54,710 --> 01:07:53,599
what i'm saying let me interject really

1988
01:07:55,430 --> 01:07:54,720
quickly and then i want you to comment

1989
01:07:59,109 --> 01:07:55,440
on it

1990
01:07:59,670 --> 01:07:59,119
if he is that north korean press release

1991
01:08:02,309 --> 01:07:59,680
guy

1992
01:08:03,270 --> 01:08:02,319
press secretary historian for north

1993
01:08:06,069 --> 01:08:03,280
korea

1994
01:08:07,670 --> 01:08:06,079
we look at him differently than if he's

1995
01:08:08,230 --> 01:08:07,680
kind of tried to do his best with the

1996
01:08:11,109 --> 01:08:08,240
history

1997
01:08:12,630 --> 01:08:11,119
i think he's that north korean guy okay

1998
01:08:13,990 --> 01:08:12,640
so first of all

1999
01:08:16,149 --> 01:08:14,000
golly i like hitting the tennis ball

2000
01:08:18,870 --> 01:08:16,159
around with you man this is really fun

2001
01:08:20,550 --> 01:08:18,880
really fun you hit it well secondly i

2002
01:08:37,189 --> 01:08:20,560
don't think that's analogous

2003
01:08:40,550 --> 01:08:38,709
there's a reason available moved east

2004
01:08:41,269 --> 01:08:40,560
300 years later because they couldn't

2005
01:08:43,669 --> 01:08:41,279
keep a grip

2006
01:08:44,709 --> 01:08:43,679
on the eastern mediterranean from that

2007
01:08:48,470 --> 01:08:44,719
position

2008
01:08:51,510 --> 01:08:48,480
this story is all unfolding in judea

2009
01:08:53,990 --> 01:08:51,520
in galilee in transjordan the decapolis

2010
01:08:55,510 --> 01:08:54,000
that's where all the stuff that that

2011
01:08:57,669 --> 01:08:55,520
josephus is writing about

2012
01:08:59,349 --> 01:08:57,679
is unfolding now that's all vettable for

2013
01:09:01,430 --> 01:08:59,359
a first century audience

2014
01:09:03,430 --> 01:09:01,440
they can just go and look it's not like

2015
01:09:05,430 --> 01:09:03,440
these are far away stories

2016
01:09:06,950 --> 01:09:05,440
they can either say no that's not what

2017
01:09:08,390 --> 01:09:06,960
happened or that is what happened and

2018
01:09:10,950 --> 01:09:08,400
that's going to affect

2019
01:09:12,309 --> 01:09:10,960
its circulation and its interest level

2020
01:09:13,749 --> 01:09:12,319
whereas with north korea

2021
01:09:15,189 --> 01:09:13,759
the reason i think that analogy doesn't

2022
01:09:16,149 --> 01:09:15,199
hold is you can't cross-reference it

2023
01:09:17,669 --> 01:09:16,159
with anything

2024
01:09:19,269 --> 01:09:17,679
it's happening if a north korea

2025
01:09:19,990 --> 01:09:19,279
propaganda is happening in a far away

2026
01:09:21,749 --> 01:09:20,000
place you can't

2027
01:09:23,990 --> 01:09:21,759
visit you can't vet you can't

2028
01:09:25,590 --> 01:09:24,000
investigate and in this analogy

2029
01:09:27,110 --> 01:09:25,600
all of the data is coming out of the

2030
01:09:29,110 --> 01:09:27,120
center of power whereas

2031
01:09:31,430 --> 01:09:29,120
in the historical event you and i are

2032
01:09:32,229 --> 01:09:31,440
talking about josephus is writing about

2033
01:09:34,950 --> 01:09:32,239
something in the

2034
01:09:37,030 --> 01:09:34,960
far east of the roman empire in those

2035
01:09:40,870 --> 01:09:37,040
four provinces primarily

2036
01:09:42,789 --> 01:09:40,880
and the roman authority is headquartered

2037
01:09:43,990 --> 01:09:42,799
in the very very far west he's writing

2038
01:09:45,829 --> 01:09:44,000
about stuff that happened in their

2039
01:09:47,590 --> 01:09:45,839
backyard they know people who were there

2040
01:09:49,189 --> 01:09:47,600
they can vet this stuff themselves so i

2041
01:09:50,709 --> 01:09:49,199
think there is

2042
01:09:52,550 --> 01:09:50,719
there's a degree of difference in terms

2043
01:09:53,590 --> 01:09:52,560
of what the propagandist can get away

2044
01:09:55,910 --> 01:09:53,600
with

2045
01:09:58,070 --> 01:09:55,920
in the north korea example versus here

2046
01:09:59,830 --> 01:09:58,080
but i think you're absolutely right and

2047
01:10:02,950 --> 01:09:59,840
you make a great point

2048
01:10:06,070 --> 01:10:02,960
by his own admission

2049
01:10:08,390 --> 01:10:06,080
dude is is positioning himself

2050
01:10:10,310 --> 01:10:08,400
to have his accounts questioned as being

2051
01:10:11,830 --> 01:10:10,320
that which advances the cause of the

2052
01:10:13,510 --> 01:10:11,840
roman ideology

2053
01:10:15,189 --> 01:10:13,520
we're almost we're almost there in terms

2054
01:10:16,950 --> 01:10:15,199
of coming together but let's

2055
01:10:19,910 --> 01:10:16,960
take one step further because here is

2056
01:10:22,470 --> 01:10:19,920
the money shot and i sent you this

2057
01:10:23,990 --> 01:10:22,480
i can't i can't wrap my head around how

2058
01:10:25,990 --> 01:10:24,000
many biblical scholars

2059
01:10:27,910 --> 01:10:26,000
genuine biblical biblical scholars and

2060
01:10:29,270 --> 01:10:27,920
you've read a lot of them and so have i

2061
01:10:31,270 --> 01:10:29,280
and a lot of them are totally full of

2062
01:10:31,990 --> 01:10:31,280
and go through an entire career

2063
01:10:34,550 --> 01:10:32,000
just saying

2064
01:10:35,990 --> 01:10:34,560
a bunch of nonsense this to me is the

2065
01:10:39,270 --> 01:10:36,000
most important thing

2066
01:10:40,310 --> 01:10:39,280
that josephus says that completely i

2067
01:10:42,630 --> 01:10:40,320
think

2068
01:10:44,310 --> 01:10:42,640
shuts the door on this issue of whether

2069
01:10:48,310 --> 01:10:44,320
he's a propaganda agent

2070
01:10:51,750 --> 01:10:48,320
and this is from war of the jews

2071
01:10:53,510 --> 01:10:51,760
and he's describing his people

2072
01:10:55,189 --> 01:10:53,520
right because a lot of people in the

2073
01:10:56,070 --> 01:10:55,199
jewish tradition consider joseph as a

2074
01:10:58,229 --> 01:10:56,080
traitor

2075
01:10:59,189 --> 01:10:58,239
i yeah that's after the fact he wasn't

2076
01:11:00,870 --> 01:10:59,199
traitor he was just

2077
01:11:02,229 --> 01:11:00,880
trying to advance what he was trying to

2078
01:11:04,870 --> 01:11:02,239
advance here's what he writes

2079
01:11:06,149 --> 01:11:04,880
sure but what more than all else incited

2080
01:11:09,030 --> 01:11:06,159
them to war

2081
01:11:09,669 --> 01:11:09,040
was the ambiguous oracle likewise found

2082
01:11:12,630 --> 01:11:09,679
in their

2083
01:11:15,110 --> 01:11:12,640
sacred scriptures so what he's saying is

2084
01:11:15,669 --> 01:11:15,120
the reason why these jews of which he is

2085
01:11:18,470 --> 01:11:15,679
one

2086
01:11:20,229 --> 01:11:18,480
he was a jewish general fighting against

2087
01:11:21,750 --> 01:11:20,239
the romans in galilee if you believe his

2088
01:11:22,310 --> 01:11:21,760
story and that part of it is probably

2089
01:11:23,990 --> 01:11:22,320
true

2090
01:11:25,590 --> 01:11:24,000
so it's kind of even the language is

2091
01:11:25,910 --> 01:11:25,600
weird you have to wrap your head around

2092
01:11:28,950 --> 01:11:25,920
it

2093
01:11:31,830 --> 01:11:28,960
saying

2094
01:11:32,470 --> 01:11:31,840
the jews which he is one but anyways he

2095
01:11:34,550 --> 01:11:32,480
says

2096
01:11:36,630 --> 01:11:34,560
the scriptures to the fact that at the

2097
01:11:39,750 --> 01:11:36,640
time one from their country would become

2098
01:11:41,830 --> 01:11:39,760
ruler of the world so he's saying look

2099
01:11:43,830 --> 01:11:41,840
the reason that the jews are kind of

2100
01:11:44,790 --> 01:11:43,840
holding out and fighting so strongly

2101
01:11:48,390 --> 01:11:44,800
against the romans

2102
01:11:49,590 --> 01:11:48,400
is they had this belief that the messiah

2103
01:11:51,910 --> 01:11:49,600
was coming

2104
01:11:52,709 --> 01:11:51,920
and the messiah would come from their

2105
01:11:54,070 --> 01:11:52,719
soil

2106
01:11:56,149 --> 01:11:54,080
that's what they believe now this is

2107
01:11:59,430 --> 01:11:56,159
josephus's spin is that

2108
01:12:01,990 --> 01:11:59,440
that's why they're so mad at the romans

2109
01:12:03,430 --> 01:12:02,000
and here super jew josephus steps in and

2110
01:12:05,430 --> 01:12:03,440
says

2111
01:12:06,550 --> 01:12:05,440
they understood to mean that someone of

2112
01:12:08,550 --> 01:12:06,560
their own race

2113
01:12:10,310 --> 01:12:08,560
and many of their wise men went astray

2114
01:12:13,430 --> 01:12:10,320
in their interpretation of it

2115
01:12:18,070 --> 01:12:13,440
but really the oracle in reality

2116
01:12:19,830 --> 01:12:18,080
signified the sovereignty of vespasian

2117
01:12:22,149 --> 01:12:19,840
who was proclaimed emperor on jewish

2118
01:12:23,590 --> 01:12:22,159
soil now again you you as this is all

2119
01:12:25,189 --> 01:12:23,600
over you i mean this is like you said

2120
01:12:27,750 --> 01:12:25,199
you're having fun conversation

2121
01:12:29,270 --> 01:12:27,760
with me i i am loving this dude because

2122
01:12:31,030 --> 01:12:29,280
you do have this deep knowledge

2123
01:12:32,950 --> 01:12:31,040
but to just deconstruct that most people

2124
01:12:33,990 --> 01:12:32,960
won't even totally get that so let me

2125
01:12:36,550 --> 01:12:34,000
just say

2126
01:12:38,229 --> 01:12:36,560
he's saying look they had this idea that

2127
01:12:39,830 --> 01:12:38,239
there would be a messiah and he would

2128
01:12:41,870 --> 01:12:39,840
come from judea

2129
01:12:43,430 --> 01:12:41,880
what they didn't realize is that when

2130
01:12:45,430 --> 01:12:43,440
vespasian

2131
01:12:47,030 --> 01:12:45,440
is named which is really kind of a fluke

2132
01:12:49,510 --> 01:12:47,040
in history that he was named

2133
01:12:50,550 --> 01:12:49,520
emperor while he was still in judea kind

2134
01:12:52,709 --> 01:12:50,560
of a fluke

2135
01:12:54,790 --> 01:12:52,719
so josephus is trying to blow that up

2136
01:12:57,830 --> 01:12:54,800
and saying hey you know what

2137
01:13:00,709 --> 01:12:57,840
that's really what the oracle

2138
01:13:01,830 --> 01:13:00,719
prophesied this can only be understood

2139
01:13:03,590 --> 01:13:01,840
as propaganda

2140
01:13:05,430 --> 01:13:03,600
because what it is is a social

2141
01:13:08,790 --> 01:13:05,440
engineering project

2142
01:13:11,189 --> 01:13:08,800
to tell the jews hey man what are you

2143
01:13:12,229 --> 01:13:11,199
complaining about you got exactly what

2144
01:13:15,590 --> 01:13:12,239
you wanted

2145
01:13:17,030 --> 01:13:15,600
this is the messiah it's vespasian you

2146
01:13:19,590 --> 01:13:17,040
idiots you didn't see it

2147
01:13:21,590 --> 01:13:19,600
here it is so rather than looking at

2148
01:13:24,070 --> 01:13:21,600
this as a trader which we do

2149
01:13:25,990 --> 01:13:24,080
in present time because it didn't work

2150
01:13:26,550 --> 01:13:26,000
it's just a failed social engineering

2151
01:13:28,229 --> 01:13:26,560
project

2152
01:13:30,390 --> 01:13:28,239
he was trying to pull off what the

2153
01:13:32,709 --> 01:13:30,400
romans tried to pull off all the time

2154
01:13:34,229 --> 01:13:32,719
which was like hey if we can co-op the

2155
01:13:35,110 --> 01:13:34,239
religion and get him to come over to our

2156
01:13:38,709 --> 01:13:35,120
side that way

2157
01:13:41,350 --> 01:13:38,719
all the better there is in my opinion

2158
01:13:43,990 --> 01:13:41,360
no other way no other way to read this

2159
01:13:46,709 --> 01:13:44,000
quote than that

2160
01:13:48,070 --> 01:13:46,719
i think you're exactly right i wish we

2161
01:13:50,310 --> 01:13:48,080
could disagree on it because it would be

2162
01:13:54,149 --> 01:13:50,320
more fun and make for better radio

2163
01:13:55,669 --> 01:13:54,159
but clearly this is propagandism

2164
01:13:57,270 --> 01:13:55,679
and the reason why let me take just

2165
01:13:59,990 --> 01:13:57,280
imagine a parenthetical here

2166
01:14:01,030 --> 01:14:00,000
brief aside is that people had messiah

2167
01:14:04,790 --> 01:14:01,040
fever

2168
01:14:07,990 --> 01:14:04,800
in the time in roman judea roman galilei

2169
01:14:10,310 --> 01:14:08,000
uh acts chapter what is it four or five

2170
01:14:12,149 --> 01:14:10,320
where you've got gamaliel the head of

2171
01:14:12,709 --> 01:14:12,159
the sanhedrin speaking up and saying hey

2172
01:14:14,070 --> 01:14:12,719
guys

2173
01:14:15,669 --> 01:14:14,080
i don't know what we do with peter and

2174
01:14:17,350 --> 01:14:15,679
this christian cult thing that we have

2175
01:14:19,270 --> 01:14:17,360
going on but remember a while back

2176
01:14:20,950 --> 01:14:19,280
when judas the galilean rised up and

2177
01:14:22,070 --> 01:14:20,960
when theodus rose up and

2178
01:14:23,510 --> 01:14:22,080
of course there's debate about the

2179
01:14:25,110 --> 01:14:23,520
timeline regarding the reference to

2180
01:14:26,709 --> 01:14:25,120
theaters whether we're talking about

2181
01:14:28,149 --> 01:14:26,719
the one well known to history or some

2182
01:14:30,630 --> 01:14:28,159
other guy with the same name

2183
01:14:31,430 --> 01:14:30,640
he referenced two rival messianic

2184
01:14:34,709 --> 01:14:31,440
claimants

2185
01:14:36,149 --> 01:14:34,719
pilate put down a messianic uprising

2186
01:14:39,270 --> 01:14:36,159
born out of the samaritans

2187
01:14:41,110 --> 01:14:39,280
on was it mount gerizim some people

2188
01:14:42,950 --> 01:14:41,120
came to believe that moses was up there

2189
01:14:44,950 --> 01:14:42,960
something moses had buried

2190
01:14:46,709 --> 01:14:44,960
that was one of the things that really

2191
01:14:47,590 --> 01:14:46,719
hurt pilate's political career is that

2192
01:14:50,229 --> 01:14:47,600
he violently

2193
01:14:51,669 --> 01:14:50,239
botched that little messianic uprising

2194
01:14:53,830 --> 01:14:51,679
there john the baptist

2195
01:14:55,830 --> 01:14:53,840
had a huge messianic following that

2196
01:14:59,030 --> 01:14:55,840
persists all the way into the

2197
01:15:01,669 --> 01:14:59,040
50s or 60s a b that is referenced

2198
01:15:03,350 --> 01:15:01,679
when apollos of alexandria makes his way

2199
01:15:04,390 --> 01:15:03,360
to ephesus and corinth then he gets to

2200
01:15:07,510 --> 01:15:04,400
know

2201
01:15:08,950 --> 01:15:07,520
paul's buddies uh aquila and priscilla

2202
01:15:10,790 --> 01:15:08,960
and they engage with him and he's like i

2203
01:15:12,310 --> 01:15:10,800
only know the baptism of john

2204
01:15:14,390 --> 01:15:12,320
so there were still people even coming

2205
01:15:16,550 --> 01:15:14,400
out of john the baptist who viewed him

2206
01:15:19,270 --> 01:15:16,560
as some sort of messianic figure

2207
01:15:21,430 --> 01:15:19,280
you have got uh what's the guy saying

2208
01:15:24,709 --> 01:15:21,440
nicholas of perea there's a guy from

2209
01:15:26,870 --> 01:15:24,719
perea who has a similar messianic claim

2210
01:15:29,590 --> 01:15:26,880
um there's a dude from crete moses of

2211
01:15:31,750 --> 01:15:29,600
crete a little bit later on

2212
01:15:32,790 --> 01:15:31,760
so then what do we do with josephus well

2213
01:15:35,510 --> 01:15:32,800
this is what i'm driving at

2214
01:15:36,390 --> 01:15:35,520
so you've got a dozen of these messianic

2215
01:15:39,110 --> 01:15:36,400
claims

2216
01:15:39,669 --> 01:15:39,120
that are hanging around and how many of

2217
01:15:42,630 --> 01:15:39,679
those

2218
01:15:43,830 --> 01:15:42,640
have held up with any with any any

2219
01:15:45,189 --> 01:15:43,840
meaningful way over the last two

2220
01:15:47,430 --> 01:15:45,199
thousand years one

2221
01:15:49,189 --> 01:15:47,440
does that automatically make it right no

2222
01:15:51,350 --> 01:15:49,199
lots of things get traction and

2223
01:15:52,550 --> 01:15:51,360
pass the test of time not because

2224
01:15:55,189 --> 01:15:52,560
they're true but because they

2225
01:15:57,350 --> 01:15:55,199
got lucky is it possible that that's

2226
01:15:58,870 --> 01:15:57,360
what jesus is as a messianic claimant

2227
01:16:02,149 --> 01:15:58,880
well sure you have to explore that

2228
01:16:04,229 --> 01:16:02,159
possibility but everybody else

2229
01:16:05,750 --> 01:16:04,239
made quick claims and did nothing they

2230
01:16:06,149 --> 01:16:05,760
were violent but i think you're jumping

2231
01:16:07,750 --> 01:16:06,159
at it

2232
01:16:10,149 --> 01:16:07,760
you're jumping ahead in the story a

2233
01:16:13,669 --> 01:16:10,159
little bit more than that

2234
01:16:14,630 --> 01:16:13,679
but vespasian nobody viewed him as a

2235
01:16:17,830 --> 01:16:14,640
messiah

2236
01:16:19,510 --> 01:16:17,840
yeah no it's at the time

2237
01:16:21,189 --> 01:16:19,520
see again you're jumping ahead in the

2238
01:16:22,550 --> 01:16:21,199
story and respectfully i think you're

2239
01:16:23,110 --> 01:16:22,560
misinterpreting it we're just having fun

2240
01:16:26,149 --> 01:16:23,120
here but

2241
01:16:28,709 --> 01:16:26,159
it's like no the most important guy

2242
01:16:29,590 --> 01:16:28,719
in the world thought that he was the

2243
01:16:32,470 --> 01:16:29,600
messiah

2244
01:16:34,790 --> 01:16:32,480
josephus for a minute for for that's

2245
01:16:36,950 --> 01:16:34,800
right well but that's all

2246
01:16:38,470 --> 01:16:36,960
all that matters is that is that minute

2247
01:16:41,350 --> 01:16:38,480
all that matters is

2248
01:16:43,270 --> 01:16:41,360
josephus is the guy this is the history

2249
01:16:43,750 --> 01:16:43,280
this is the official word that's coming

2250
01:16:46,470 --> 01:16:43,760
out

2251
01:16:49,910 --> 01:16:46,480
and he's saying so again no you can't i

2252
01:16:53,590 --> 01:16:52,630
if you acknowledge that this is roman

2253
01:16:55,669 --> 01:16:53,600
propaganda

2254
01:16:57,350 --> 01:16:55,679
and that the only purpose behind it can

2255
01:16:59,910 --> 01:16:57,360
be the purpose that

2256
01:17:01,430 --> 01:16:59,920
it clearly has which is to subvert

2257
01:17:03,350 --> 01:17:01,440
judaism

2258
01:17:04,550 --> 01:17:03,360
then that puts this moment in time that

2259
01:17:05,510 --> 01:17:04,560
you're just saying which is way in the

2260
01:17:07,430 --> 01:17:05,520
west and all that

2261
01:17:09,590 --> 01:17:07,440
it puts it in a completely different

2262
01:17:13,350 --> 01:17:09,600
light and my point is that

2263
01:17:14,470 --> 01:17:13,360
we must then look at everything that

2264
01:17:16,950 --> 01:17:14,480
josephus

2265
01:17:19,510 --> 01:17:16,960
says through this lens because he's

2266
01:17:21,590 --> 01:17:19,520
already played the ultimate card

2267
01:17:23,590 --> 01:17:21,600
this idea like in his preface where he

2268
01:17:26,870 --> 01:17:23,600
says he's an honest broker of the truth

2269
01:17:28,310 --> 01:17:26,880
he clearly now is not an honest broker

2270
01:17:28,709 --> 01:17:28,320
of the truth there can be no doubt on

2271
01:17:31,270 --> 01:17:28,719
that

2272
01:17:32,709 --> 01:17:31,280
and this is a a stumbling block for so

2273
01:17:35,669 --> 01:17:32,719
many historians they go

2274
01:17:36,149 --> 01:17:35,679
yeah josephus is full of but you

2275
01:17:39,030 --> 01:17:36,159
know

2276
01:17:40,310 --> 01:17:39,040
the light over here out in the street is

2277
01:17:42,149 --> 01:17:40,320
really better so that's where i'm

2278
01:17:43,750 --> 01:17:42,159
looking for my keys even though i lost

2279
01:17:45,110 --> 01:17:43,760
them over in the dark parking lot

2280
01:17:47,669 --> 01:17:45,120
i'm going to look over here at jeff see

2281
01:17:49,990 --> 01:17:47,679
this no you can't josephus is

2282
01:17:51,510 --> 01:17:50,000
out the window so the next thing i'd go

2283
01:17:54,390 --> 01:17:51,520
to is no

2284
01:17:56,709 --> 01:17:54,400
oh oh oh he's out the window don't take

2285
01:18:01,350 --> 01:17:56,719
me the wrong way like you did on science

2286
01:18:04,630 --> 01:18:01,360
he is of course spinning 95 percent

2287
01:18:07,910 --> 01:18:04,640
real stuff but it's always through

2288
01:18:10,950 --> 01:18:07,920
the lens he is he has only one purpose

2289
01:18:12,630 --> 01:18:10,960
which is to propagandize rome he doesn't

2290
01:18:15,270 --> 01:18:12,640
have any other purpose

2291
01:18:17,189 --> 01:18:15,280
he's the guy who led him to the gold if

2292
01:18:19,270 --> 01:18:17,199
you go look at the arch of titus

2293
01:18:21,189 --> 01:18:19,280
where they're hauling away all that gold

2294
01:18:22,790 --> 01:18:21,199
he went and got all that stuff for him

2295
01:18:24,950 --> 01:18:22,800
it wasn't that he prophesized

2296
01:18:26,870 --> 01:18:24,960
so he is totally if that's what it looks

2297
01:18:29,030 --> 01:18:26,880
like so he's totally in their pocket

2298
01:18:30,790 --> 01:18:29,040
he's doing their bidding and we must

2299
01:18:33,590 --> 01:18:30,800
understand that when we look at

2300
01:18:36,310 --> 01:18:33,600
anything he writes particularly what he

2301
01:18:39,510 --> 01:18:36,320
writes about pontius pilate

2302
01:18:41,590 --> 01:18:39,520
well what historical

2303
01:18:43,430 --> 01:18:41,600
writer throughout history do you not

2304
01:18:44,790 --> 01:18:43,440
have to apply lenses to

2305
01:18:46,950 --> 01:18:44,800
i mean well let's just take you and me

2306
01:18:48,229 --> 01:18:46,960
for example have you ever shield for

2307
01:18:50,070 --> 01:18:48,239
something

2308
01:18:51,669 --> 01:18:50,080
i don't know you but you've lived a long

2309
01:18:52,390 --> 01:18:51,679
time you've chilled for something at

2310
01:18:55,110 --> 01:18:52,400
some point

2311
01:18:56,310 --> 01:18:55,120
i promise something where you got paid

2312
01:18:58,229 --> 01:18:56,320
maybe this wasn't really what you

2313
01:19:00,550 --> 01:18:58,239
believed in or your first thing but

2314
01:19:01,910 --> 01:19:00,560
yeah sure whatever i have people have

2315
01:19:03,110 --> 01:19:01,920
like it just happens even if it was just

2316
01:19:04,790 --> 01:19:03,120
when you were a kid and you weren't even

2317
01:19:07,750 --> 01:19:04,800
really thinking about it i mean

2318
01:19:08,790 --> 01:19:07,760
humans at times are in positions where

2319
01:19:09,990 --> 01:19:08,800
they advance something

2320
01:19:11,590 --> 01:19:10,000
but i don't sense your shilling for

2321
01:19:12,390 --> 01:19:11,600
anything now i sense your pursuit is

2322
01:19:13,910 --> 01:19:12,400
honest

2323
01:19:15,910 --> 01:19:13,920
and not that i'm the arbiter of that who

2324
01:19:18,310 --> 01:19:15,920
cares what i think but i like the way

2325
01:19:19,430 --> 01:19:18,320
you come at it i like the way

2326
01:19:21,830 --> 01:19:19,440
it seems like you come at it with

2327
01:19:24,149 --> 01:19:21,840
integrity i should i not take you

2328
01:19:25,830 --> 01:19:24,159
seriously now because at some point

2329
01:19:26,950 --> 01:19:25,840
somewhere else you were in another place

2330
01:19:29,189 --> 01:19:26,960
in life and you said this because

2331
01:19:31,189 --> 01:19:29,199
josephus's later writings

2332
01:19:32,870 --> 01:19:31,199
look like he's all over the map in terms

2333
01:19:34,550 --> 01:19:32,880
of taking other positions

2334
01:19:36,149 --> 01:19:34,560
he comes back it's like he wants to give

2335
01:19:37,189 --> 01:19:36,159
a makeup call to the jews and

2336
01:19:39,430 --> 01:19:37,199
antiquities

2337
01:19:40,790 --> 01:19:39,440
and wants to talk about how beautiful

2338
01:19:42,550 --> 01:19:40,800
this tradition has been it's like

2339
01:19:43,110 --> 01:19:42,560
there's been a political shift that has

2340
01:19:44,870 --> 01:19:43,120
occurred

2341
01:19:46,630 --> 01:19:44,880
he's no longer feeling the pressures

2342
01:19:48,550 --> 01:19:46,640
under the court of the spacian

2343
01:19:49,750 --> 01:19:48,560
to advocate for the stuff he had been

2344
01:19:50,950 --> 01:19:49,760
and so now he's willing to go a

2345
01:19:54,149 --> 01:19:50,960
different direction

2346
01:19:55,270 --> 01:19:54,159
does it make him a shill yes but he's a

2347
01:19:57,350 --> 01:19:55,280
moving target

2348
01:19:59,590 --> 01:19:57,360
shill who's shilling for different

2349
01:20:02,229 --> 01:19:59,600
things and we can reestablish that

2350
01:20:03,270 --> 01:20:02,239
with some historical context which means

2351
01:20:05,030 --> 01:20:03,280
that you can't

2352
01:20:06,310 --> 01:20:05,040
you can't throw out somebody because

2353
01:20:06,629 --> 01:20:06,320
they're a shill you just have to know

2354
01:20:09,910 --> 01:20:06,639
how

2355
01:20:10,950 --> 01:20:09,920
don't really disagree with you and i

2356
01:20:13,270 --> 01:20:10,960
think this is like

2357
01:20:14,149 --> 01:20:13,280
the real real finer points of this thing

2358
01:20:15,669 --> 01:20:14,159
but it's to me

2359
01:20:18,149 --> 01:20:15,679
it's where it gets interesting it's

2360
01:20:19,990 --> 01:20:18,159
really where the rubber meets the road

2361
01:20:21,669 --> 01:20:20,000
yeah yeah yeah to all the things you're

2362
01:20:22,790 --> 01:20:21,679
saying to the transformation

2363
01:20:25,350 --> 01:20:22,800
you know and the other thing i always

2364
01:20:26,470 --> 01:20:25,360
throw into this and i have to throw it

2365
01:20:28,229 --> 01:20:26,480
in here is that

2366
01:20:30,070 --> 01:20:28,239
one of the things i think is missing

2367
01:20:32,310 --> 01:20:30,080
from our history

2368
01:20:33,510 --> 01:20:32,320
is this understanding that we're all

2369
01:20:37,030 --> 01:20:33,520
leading rich

2370
01:20:39,830 --> 01:20:37,040
spiritual lives so josephus is leading

2371
01:20:41,669 --> 01:20:39,840
a rich spiritual life if i'm calling him

2372
01:20:42,149 --> 01:20:41,679
michelle if i'm calling him a propaganda

2373
01:20:43,830 --> 01:20:42,159
agent

2374
01:20:45,430 --> 01:20:43,840
if i'm calling him somebody who cashed

2375
01:20:45,990 --> 01:20:45,440
in for the money to go live in the

2376
01:20:48,550 --> 01:20:46,000
townhouse

2377
01:20:49,910 --> 01:20:48,560
in rome it he still woke up at two

2378
01:20:52,149 --> 01:20:49,920
o'clock in the morning

2379
01:20:53,189 --> 01:20:52,159
and wondered who if he if those he loved

2380
01:20:55,189 --> 01:20:53,199
loved him back

2381
01:20:57,270 --> 01:20:55,199
he wondered if there was god he wonder

2382
01:20:59,990 --> 01:20:57,280
how his soul would be weighed

2383
01:21:00,790 --> 01:21:00,000
because we all that's the experience of

2384
01:21:03,189 --> 01:21:00,800
being human

2385
01:21:04,629 --> 01:21:03,199
vespasian when he was running his sword

2386
01:21:07,669 --> 01:21:04,639
through those druid

2387
01:21:11,030 --> 01:21:07,679
those beautifully spiritually druid

2388
01:21:12,870 --> 01:21:11,040
priests in britannia

2389
01:21:14,550 --> 01:21:12,880
that was weighing on his soul because

2390
01:21:14,950 --> 01:21:14,560
the things we do weighs on everyone's

2391
01:21:18,149 --> 01:21:14,960
soul

2392
01:21:19,830 --> 01:21:18,159
so of course josephus is complicated

2393
01:21:21,830 --> 01:21:19,840
but we must bring the lens back to this

2394
01:21:24,950 --> 01:21:21,840
period we must bring the lens back

2395
01:21:26,310 --> 01:21:24,960
to pontius pilate to what josephus is

2396
01:21:29,430 --> 01:21:26,320
doing right now

2397
01:21:31,270 --> 01:21:29,440
he is trying to fool you

2398
01:21:33,270 --> 01:21:31,280
he's do and he's played the ultimate

2399
01:21:35,270 --> 01:21:33,280
card now which says

2400
01:21:37,750 --> 01:21:35,280
screw your religion judaism's out the

2401
01:21:40,070 --> 01:21:37,760
window it's about vespasian

2402
01:21:41,270 --> 01:21:40,080
so when josephus starts popping up in

2403
01:21:43,910 --> 01:21:41,280
the new testament

2404
01:21:45,990 --> 01:21:43,920
and when he starts popping up or not

2405
01:21:48,229 --> 01:21:46,000
popping up in the account of

2406
01:21:49,510 --> 01:21:48,239
pontius pilate we need to take notice

2407
01:21:51,990 --> 01:21:49,520
and we need to focus

2408
01:21:54,550 --> 01:21:52,000
on that period not his whole life not

2409
01:21:56,950 --> 01:21:54,560
his rich spiritual life and not his

2410
01:21:58,310 --> 01:21:56,960
transformation just on what he's saying

2411
01:22:01,510 --> 01:21:58,320
right now

2412
01:22:05,030 --> 01:22:01,520
and we by absence

2413
01:22:06,390 --> 01:22:05,040
we know that jesus didn't get a sit with

2414
01:22:13,350 --> 01:22:06,400
pontius pilate

2415
01:22:15,990 --> 01:22:13,360
and not show up in josephus's book

2416
01:22:17,510 --> 01:22:16,000
hell josephus wrote about the aqueduct

2417
01:22:18,390 --> 01:22:17,520
riot have you ever heard of the aqueduct

2418
01:22:21,270 --> 01:22:18,400
riot

2419
01:22:21,669 --> 01:22:21,280
of course it's in my video oh see i

2420
01:22:23,830 --> 01:22:21,679
was

2421
01:22:24,709 --> 01:22:23,840
trying to try to trump you man and i

2422
01:22:27,910 --> 01:22:24,719
can't do it

2423
01:22:30,310 --> 01:22:27,920
pontius pilate is a real guy your video

2424
01:22:32,229 --> 01:22:30,320
makes that clear you have the coins you

2425
01:22:33,669 --> 01:22:32,239
have the video of you in rome where he's

2426
01:22:36,950 --> 01:22:33,679
on there

2427
01:22:39,750 --> 01:22:36,960
there is no way that jesus met

2428
01:22:40,709 --> 01:22:39,760
with that guy and it doesn't show up in

2429
01:22:45,350 --> 01:22:40,719
josephus

2430
01:22:46,709 --> 01:22:45,360
like the aqueduct riot

2431
01:22:48,870 --> 01:22:46,719
so why do you read about that do you

2432
01:22:51,910 --> 01:22:48,880
think because it makes

2433
01:22:52,310 --> 01:22:51,920
it makes pontius pilot look kind of cool

2434
01:22:54,310 --> 01:22:52,320
um

2435
01:22:55,510 --> 01:22:54,320
i think you've got it exactly backwards

2436
01:22:56,790 --> 01:22:55,520
and i think i might

2437
01:22:58,310 --> 01:22:56,800
i think i might have more homework on

2438
01:22:59,350 --> 01:22:58,320
this one than you but i could be wrong

2439
01:23:00,790 --> 01:22:59,360
so i'm going to make my case and you

2440
01:23:03,430 --> 01:23:00,800
tell me yours

2441
01:23:03,910 --> 01:23:03,440
i would offer this thesis it did not

2442
01:23:06,070 --> 01:23:03,920
advance

2443
01:23:08,310 --> 01:23:06,080
josephus's purposes in writing about

2444
01:23:09,830 --> 01:23:08,320
pontius pilate for the larger point that

2445
01:23:11,990 --> 01:23:09,840
you have rightly pointed out the

2446
01:23:14,629 --> 01:23:12,000
exaltation of the romans

2447
01:23:16,149 --> 01:23:14,639
it did not advance his purposes to

2448
01:23:18,629 --> 01:23:16,159
include anything about

2449
01:23:20,310 --> 01:23:18,639
jesus sitting with pontius pilate what

2450
01:23:22,470 --> 01:23:20,320
he's doing here is not that tough i

2451
01:23:24,709 --> 01:23:22,480
keep my copy of just just really handy

2452
01:23:26,870 --> 01:23:24,719
i've burned through this multiple times

2453
01:23:27,990 --> 01:23:26,880
i'm not an expert on josephus by any

2454
01:23:29,590 --> 01:23:28,000
means but

2455
01:23:31,189 --> 01:23:29,600
first century is my world i just it's

2456
01:23:33,750 --> 01:23:31,199
fascinating i like it i'm not

2457
01:23:34,790 --> 01:23:33,760
an expert i just love it and so you read

2458
01:23:36,950 --> 01:23:34,800
through this

2459
01:23:39,030 --> 01:23:36,960
without any of the oh man i hope this

2460
01:23:41,430 --> 01:23:39,040
makes makes christianity look good

2461
01:23:42,709 --> 01:23:41,440
or oh man i hope it makes it look bad if

2462
01:23:44,310 --> 01:23:42,719
you step away from that and just do the

2463
01:23:45,910 --> 01:23:44,320
historical exercise

2464
01:23:47,350 --> 01:23:45,920
you see a dude who i think you've

2465
01:23:50,149 --> 01:23:47,360
rightly identified

2466
01:23:51,910 --> 01:23:50,159
as someone who played his hand and the

2467
01:23:52,390 --> 01:23:51,920
better hand was with the romans he made

2468
01:23:56,709 --> 01:23:52,400
a

2469
01:23:59,590 --> 01:23:56,719
of this

2470
01:24:01,270 --> 01:23:59,600
the spacian there are all these tests

2471
01:24:03,830 --> 01:24:01,280
that would have to be passed for messiah

2472
01:24:06,149 --> 01:24:03,840
isaiah chapter 35 lays those out

2473
01:24:07,990 --> 01:24:06,159
jesus references them matthew references

2474
01:24:09,510 --> 01:24:08,000
them that clearly even if you don't

2475
01:24:12,310 --> 01:24:09,520
believe there is a jesus

2476
01:24:14,229 --> 01:24:12,320
or believe in the gospels we know that

2477
01:24:16,149 --> 01:24:14,239
that demonstrates what the expectation

2478
01:24:18,070 --> 01:24:16,159
was in terms of messiah from the old

2479
01:24:19,510 --> 01:24:18,080
testament scriptures and the prophets

2480
01:24:21,430 --> 01:24:19,520
so that's there the station doesn't take

2481
01:24:23,270 --> 01:24:21,440
any of those boxes it's a totally

2482
01:24:25,189 --> 01:24:23,280
cynical thing that josephus is doing

2483
01:24:27,350 --> 01:24:25,199
there because he knows vespasian doesn't

2484
01:24:29,189 --> 01:24:27,360
heal the lame or make the blind to see

2485
01:24:30,390 --> 01:24:29,199
or raise the dead like isaiah said the

2486
01:24:33,430 --> 01:24:30,400
messiah would

2487
01:24:35,990 --> 01:24:33,440
maybe not cynical just a lame attempt at

2488
01:24:36,629 --> 01:24:36,000
propagandizing but for somebody that

2489
01:24:39,030 --> 01:24:36,639
smart

2490
01:24:41,030 --> 01:24:39,040
very weak attempt compared to his

2491
01:24:43,430 --> 01:24:41,040
accomplishments well his own

2492
01:24:45,510 --> 01:24:43,440
self-acclaimed accomplishments so

2493
01:24:46,070 --> 01:24:45,520
josephus is advancing an argument the

2494
01:24:49,350 --> 01:24:46,080
argument

2495
01:24:52,550 --> 01:24:49,360
is that the

2496
01:24:55,990 --> 01:24:52,560
the roman governorship leading up

2497
01:24:56,950 --> 01:24:56,000
to the the collapse in the east that

2498
01:24:59,030 --> 01:24:56,960
required

2499
01:25:01,030 --> 01:24:59,040
rome to get off of its butt bring

2500
01:25:03,590 --> 01:25:01,040
legions and solve all of this problem

2501
01:25:05,430 --> 01:25:03,600
one of his theses for what went wrong

2502
01:25:07,990 --> 01:25:05,440
was inept leadership

2503
01:25:08,790 --> 01:25:08,000
we just had bad political leadership all

2504
01:25:10,550 --> 01:25:08,800
this time

2505
01:25:12,229 --> 01:25:10,560
so the accounts we get from josephus

2506
01:25:14,070 --> 01:25:12,239
both in the antiquities and the jewish

2507
01:25:17,270 --> 01:25:14,080
wars of pontius pilate's

2508
01:25:20,229 --> 01:25:17,280
time in office paint him as weak

2509
01:25:22,470 --> 01:25:20,239
fumbling dumb trying to impress tiberius

2510
01:25:24,550 --> 01:25:22,480
and doing a terribly sloppy job of it

2511
01:25:25,990 --> 01:25:24,560
and i give this a very concise treatment

2512
01:25:27,430 --> 01:25:26,000
for about seven eight minutes

2513
01:25:29,030 --> 01:25:27,440
in the video that you're referencing

2514
01:25:30,709 --> 01:25:29,040
here and so you've got the issue

2515
01:25:33,030 --> 01:25:30,719
of you've got the the crisis of the

2516
01:25:35,110 --> 01:25:33,040
shields the crisis of the banners

2517
01:25:36,629 --> 01:25:35,120
the crisis of the aqueduct you've got

2518
01:25:39,590 --> 01:25:36,639
the crisis of

2519
01:25:40,870 --> 01:25:39,600
the samaritan prophet in all of these

2520
01:25:42,870 --> 01:25:40,880
things

2521
01:25:44,709 --> 01:25:42,880
pilate is held out by josephus as

2522
01:25:48,310 --> 01:25:44,719
getting it exactly

2523
01:25:51,270 --> 01:25:48,320
wrong and botching it on this front

2524
01:25:52,950 --> 01:25:51,280
and then we move on from pilate who we

2525
01:25:54,950 --> 01:25:52,960
care about because of the long shadow

2526
01:25:55,990 --> 01:25:54,960
jesus of nazareth casts over western

2527
01:25:57,510 --> 01:25:56,000
history

2528
01:25:59,110 --> 01:25:57,520
and if you keep going with josephus

2529
01:26:01,189 --> 01:25:59,120
argument you realize he wasn't really

2530
01:26:02,629 --> 01:26:01,199
that concerned with pilate

2531
01:26:04,149 --> 01:26:02,639
the stuff that comes up because it

2532
01:26:06,470 --> 01:26:04,159
overlaps with the bible is

2533
01:26:09,110 --> 01:26:06,480
disproportionately represented

2534
01:26:10,229 --> 01:26:09,120
in in josephus studies but you keep

2535
01:26:12,070 --> 01:26:10,239
reading with him and he's like and then

2536
01:26:12,709 --> 01:26:12,080
this guy was inept and then this guy was

2537
01:26:14,709 --> 01:26:12,719
inept

2538
01:26:15,830 --> 01:26:14,719
and what you had were weak crappy

2539
01:26:19,510 --> 01:26:15,840
leaders and someone

2540
01:26:20,870 --> 01:26:19,520
strong like the spacian like titus

2541
01:26:22,709 --> 01:26:20,880
these are the kind of people who had to

2542
01:26:24,070 --> 01:26:22,719
come in and restore this thing and get

2543
01:26:25,189 --> 01:26:24,080
it squared away and point out to the

2544
01:26:26,790 --> 01:26:25,199
jewish people

2545
01:26:28,950 --> 01:26:26,800
that all of this floundering around that

2546
01:26:31,750 --> 01:26:28,960
was going on over here in just

2547
01:26:33,830 --> 01:26:31,760
a washed society you had going on you

2548
01:26:34,310 --> 01:26:33,840
should be thankful that now the real

2549
01:26:36,229 --> 01:26:34,320
roman

2550
01:26:39,030 --> 01:26:36,239
presence is here to get this

2551
01:26:41,030 --> 01:26:39,040
straightened out this is the way forward

2552
01:26:42,629 --> 01:26:41,040
in light of that it doesn't advance his

2553
01:26:44,709 --> 01:26:42,639
thesis at all

2554
01:26:46,950 --> 01:26:44,719
to be like oh and also uh there's this

2555
01:26:47,910 --> 01:26:46,960
guy jesus and he was there for a trial

2556
01:26:50,550 --> 01:26:47,920
for a minute

2557
01:26:52,709 --> 01:26:50,560
who cares it doesn't help his point so i

2558
01:26:54,790 --> 01:26:52,719
don't find it to be in any way

2559
01:26:56,629 --> 01:26:54,800
threatening to the historical claim that

2560
01:26:58,310 --> 01:26:56,639
jesus got a trial

2561
01:27:00,149 --> 01:26:58,320
if anything it makes more sense that he

2562
01:27:02,310 --> 01:27:00,159
would get a trial because

2563
01:27:04,390 --> 01:27:02,320
the pilot of the bible looks like a lot

2564
01:27:04,709 --> 01:27:04,400
like the pilot of josephus and just kind

2565
01:27:07,510 --> 01:27:04,719
of

2566
01:27:09,430 --> 01:27:07,520
overwhelmed by a political mess back in

2567
01:27:11,270 --> 01:27:09,440
rome with sejanus and an absentee

2568
01:27:12,790 --> 01:27:11,280
emperor in tiberius

2569
01:27:14,550 --> 01:27:12,800
kind of floundering in his job

2570
01:27:16,070 --> 01:27:14,560
historically we know he effectively got

2571
01:27:19,189 --> 01:27:16,080
relieved of duty

2572
01:27:22,310 --> 01:27:19,199
by a peer that was the governor of

2573
01:27:23,189 --> 01:27:22,320
syria and with 35 36 a.d something like

2574
01:27:25,430 --> 01:27:23,199
that

2575
01:27:27,350 --> 01:27:25,440
and so yeah i think jesus got an

2576
01:27:28,870 --> 01:27:27,360
audience well yeah absolutely i do that

2577
01:27:30,550 --> 01:27:28,880
isn't weird or threatening at all and it

2578
01:27:32,070 --> 01:27:30,560
doesn't mean christianity has ultimately

2579
01:27:34,310 --> 01:27:32,080
proved true

2580
01:27:35,990 --> 01:27:34,320
but yeah yeah i get you already fumbled

2581
01:27:37,510 --> 01:27:36,000
three

2582
01:27:39,030 --> 01:27:37,520
ugly incidents and wouldn't have wanted

2583
01:27:42,629 --> 01:27:39,040
to fumble that one either

2584
01:27:44,870 --> 01:27:42,639
well you know we're in now this

2585
01:27:45,990 --> 01:27:44,880
range where we can just kind of i i kind

2586
01:27:49,110 --> 01:27:46,000
of get your point

2587
01:27:50,310 --> 01:27:49,120
and point taken that josephus there

2588
01:27:52,790 --> 01:27:50,320
could have been a meeting

2589
01:27:55,189 --> 01:27:52,800
and josephus could have left it out it

2590
01:27:58,149 --> 01:27:55,199
doesn't undermine my point that

2591
01:28:00,070 --> 01:27:58,159
there wasn't a meeting and that's why

2592
01:28:02,950 --> 01:28:00,080
josephus didn't write about it

2593
01:28:05,110 --> 01:28:02,960
but either way the what do we call the

2594
01:28:06,950 --> 01:28:05,120
testianum flavion and what

2595
01:28:08,629 --> 01:28:06,960
is out the window right because if he's

2596
01:28:11,189 --> 01:28:08,639
going to talk about jesus

2597
01:28:12,950 --> 01:28:11,199
he's going to talk about it yeah well

2598
01:28:14,550 --> 01:28:12,960
the exaggerated one but it really kind

2599
01:28:15,910 --> 01:28:14,560
of calls into question the whole thing

2600
01:28:17,110 --> 01:28:15,920
because if he's going to talk about

2601
01:28:18,470 --> 01:28:17,120
jesus

2602
01:28:20,390 --> 01:28:18,480
he probably would have talked about

2603
01:28:21,030 --> 01:28:20,400
jesus now but that's still a matter of

2604
01:28:22,550 --> 01:28:21,040
conjecture

2605
01:28:24,390 --> 01:28:22,560
here's where we can see version though

2606
01:28:25,990 --> 01:28:24,400
the manuscript evidence does support so

2607
01:28:29,350 --> 01:28:26,000
there we just have data

2608
01:28:31,030 --> 01:28:29,360
yeah we we have some we have some so

2609
01:28:32,550 --> 01:28:31,040
we'll get way too bible geeky we

2610
01:28:35,030 --> 01:28:32,560
probably already have but

2611
01:28:36,229 --> 01:28:35,040
if we don't go over the moon too far so

2612
01:28:37,189 --> 01:28:36,239
the other the other problem with

2613
01:28:41,030 --> 01:28:37,199
josephus

2614
01:28:43,750 --> 01:28:41,040
is that he shows up in the new testament

2615
01:28:44,709 --> 01:28:43,760
so what biblical scholars will say is

2616
01:28:47,669 --> 01:28:44,719
that

2617
01:28:48,790 --> 01:28:47,679
he shows up the new testament let me

2618
01:28:51,510 --> 01:28:48,800
make my point

2619
01:28:52,709 --> 01:28:51,520
the new testament gospels a lot of

2620
01:28:56,149 --> 01:28:52,719
scholars will say

2621
01:28:58,950 --> 01:28:56,159
are dependent upon josephus which means

2622
01:28:59,830 --> 01:28:58,960
they look to be writing they look to be

2623
01:29:02,629 --> 01:28:59,840
written

2624
01:29:03,430 --> 01:29:02,639
by someone who has access to those

2625
01:29:07,430 --> 01:29:03,440
writings

2626
01:29:10,629 --> 01:29:07,440
right so point by point i mean

2627
01:29:12,310 --> 01:29:10,639
jesus ministry starts in galilee the

2628
01:29:14,070 --> 01:29:12,320
three guys on the cross one dies one

2629
01:29:15,430 --> 01:29:14,080
foot down all this stuff parallels

2630
01:29:18,070 --> 01:29:15,440
and then the main thing that parallels

2631
01:29:21,350 --> 01:29:18,080
that is is just glaring

2632
01:29:23,750 --> 01:29:21,360
is that josephus uh says

2633
01:29:25,030 --> 01:29:23,760
okay they seized jerusalem and then they

2634
01:29:27,430 --> 01:29:25,040
destroyed it and no

2635
01:29:29,189 --> 01:29:27,440
stone left unturned this is exactly what

2636
01:29:30,870 --> 01:29:29,199
jesus says

2637
01:29:33,350 --> 01:29:30,880
but as it's written in the gospels when

2638
01:29:36,790 --> 01:29:33,360
jesus says it it's prophecy

2639
01:29:39,110 --> 01:29:36,800
so look maybe it's prophecy

2640
01:29:41,669 --> 01:29:39,120
but when you can pick when you can pick

2641
01:29:42,149 --> 01:29:41,679
up a historical semi-quasi as we're

2642
01:29:45,430 --> 01:29:42,159
saying

2643
01:29:47,910 --> 01:29:45,440
historical account like josephus and it

2644
01:29:50,229 --> 01:29:47,920
is played by play

2645
01:29:52,870 --> 01:29:50,239
kind of describing the same things that

2646
01:29:54,070 --> 01:29:52,880
are said in the gospel at some point you

2647
01:29:57,189 --> 01:29:54,080
have to say

2648
01:30:00,310 --> 01:29:57,199
what a lot of biblical scholars say

2649
01:30:03,350 --> 01:30:00,320
is gee it looks like

2650
01:30:06,629 --> 01:30:03,360
the gospel writers had access to

2651
01:30:07,830 --> 01:30:06,639
josephus and maybe just maybe because

2652
01:30:10,950 --> 01:30:07,840
we're all human

2653
01:30:16,390 --> 01:30:10,960
they kind of wrote stuff as a prophecy

2654
01:30:19,990 --> 01:30:16,400
when it was really just history

2655
01:30:21,030 --> 01:30:20,000
maybe or here's another possibility uh

2656
01:30:23,110 --> 01:30:21,040
starting from the beginning of your

2657
01:30:24,790 --> 01:30:23,120
points and moving forward to the

2658
01:30:27,430 --> 01:30:24,800
specific phraseology of

2659
01:30:29,110 --> 01:30:27,440
not one stone on top of another maybe

2660
01:30:31,430 --> 01:30:29,120
that was just such common parlance for

2661
01:30:34,310 --> 01:30:31,440
the total destruction of the people

2662
01:30:36,229 --> 01:30:34,320
that it dated all the way back to the

2663
01:30:37,910 --> 01:30:36,239
third punic war in the roman destruction

2664
01:30:38,950 --> 01:30:37,920
of carthage that's the language that was

2665
01:30:40,870 --> 01:30:38,960
used there

2666
01:30:42,470 --> 01:30:40,880
if that language was something that is a

2667
01:30:44,550 --> 01:30:42,480
metaphor for

2668
01:30:45,669 --> 01:30:44,560
that is completely what it is to

2669
01:30:47,750 --> 01:30:45,679
completely wreck

2670
01:30:49,669 --> 01:30:47,760
a place it wouldn't be far-fetched at

2671
01:30:51,510 --> 01:30:49,679
all that jesus josephus

2672
01:30:53,030 --> 01:30:51,520
hundreds of other people that now

2673
01:30:55,270 --> 01:30:53,040
non-extant writings

2674
01:30:56,470 --> 01:30:55,280
would have used the same phrase without

2675
01:30:57,830 --> 01:30:56,480
it being this like whoa

2676
01:30:59,350 --> 01:30:57,840
that's a that's a really unique

2677
01:31:00,709 --> 01:30:59,360
plagiarized phrase well it wasn't a

2678
01:31:02,709 --> 01:31:00,719
unique plagiarized phrase

2679
01:31:04,709 --> 01:31:02,719
we see that in other places but it's

2680
01:31:06,070 --> 01:31:04,719
still prophecy

2681
01:31:07,669 --> 01:31:06,080
well it's going to be viewed that way by

2682
01:31:08,470 --> 01:31:07,679
someone who believes that jesus is the

2683
01:31:10,550 --> 01:31:08,480
messiah

2684
01:31:12,390 --> 01:31:10,560
and that that happened before 70 a.d and

2685
01:31:14,149 --> 01:31:12,400
it's going to be viewed not that way

2686
01:31:15,830 --> 01:31:14,159
by somebody who believes that jesus was

2687
01:31:17,350 --> 01:31:15,840
not from god and that that was written

2688
01:31:18,950 --> 01:31:17,360
after 70 a.d

2689
01:31:21,270 --> 01:31:18,960
we're all from god so that's not the

2690
01:31:24,950 --> 01:31:21,280
point the point is back to the data like

2691
01:31:27,110 --> 01:31:24,960
when i was kind of dissing the flavium

2692
01:31:28,629 --> 01:31:27,120
the testonium that sounds like harry

2693
01:31:30,870 --> 01:31:28,639
potter stuff i can never get that

2694
01:31:33,030 --> 01:31:30,880
and stuff right but you know you were

2695
01:31:33,430 --> 01:31:33,040
saying hey we have we have sources on

2696
01:31:35,350 --> 01:31:33,440
that

2697
01:31:38,390 --> 01:31:35,360
well here we have sources you lay

2698
01:31:40,229 --> 01:31:38,400
josephus side by side with the gospels

2699
01:31:42,310 --> 01:31:40,239
and they play out like that walk me

2700
01:31:43,990 --> 01:31:42,320
through that in what ways

2701
01:31:45,910 --> 01:31:44,000
that's going to be another show if you

2702
01:31:46,470 --> 01:31:45,920
ever come back we will lay that out but

2703
01:31:49,189 --> 01:31:46,480
it's a

2704
01:31:49,590 --> 01:31:49,199
centerpiece of your argument well i i

2705
01:31:54,149 --> 01:31:49,600
already

2706
01:31:57,990 --> 01:31:54,159
gave you two

2707
01:32:00,950 --> 01:31:58,000
the the the meeting of the three guys

2708
01:32:01,510 --> 01:32:00,960
who are being crucified right and uh

2709
01:32:04,310 --> 01:32:01,520
that's

2710
01:32:05,430 --> 01:32:04,320
right out of josephus it's right out of

2711
01:32:08,870 --> 01:32:05,440
the gospels

2712
01:32:10,229 --> 01:32:08,880
and then you'll see uh jesus sitting and

2713
01:32:12,550 --> 01:32:10,239
prophesizing you know

2714
01:32:13,590 --> 01:32:12,560
his prophecy about the siege of

2715
01:32:15,830 --> 01:32:13,600
jerusalem

2716
01:32:17,830 --> 01:32:15,840
and then the sacking and the turning i

2717
01:32:18,550 --> 01:32:17,840
mean you got a couple of data points in

2718
01:32:20,870 --> 01:32:18,560
there

2719
01:32:21,910 --> 01:32:20,880
that would have to line up so again you

2720
01:32:25,590 --> 01:32:21,920
know maybe it's

2721
01:32:29,110 --> 01:32:25,600
prophecy but it just seems given all the

2722
01:32:31,750 --> 01:32:29,120
see my point is that

2723
01:32:32,229 --> 01:32:31,760
we're in a different soup now and the

2724
01:32:35,350 --> 01:32:32,239
soup

2725
01:32:37,590 --> 01:32:35,360
is that all this is up for grabs

2726
01:32:39,189 --> 01:32:37,600
because it's all being manipulated and

2727
01:32:40,870 --> 01:32:39,199
you've already bought into that

2728
01:32:42,629 --> 01:32:40,880
because you've you've agreed that

2729
01:32:45,669 --> 01:32:42,639
there's no other way to read

2730
01:32:48,390 --> 01:32:45,679
that thing so now this is in play

2731
01:32:50,070 --> 01:32:48,400
in my opinion it's in play so and you're

2732
01:32:51,750 --> 01:32:50,080
fair with it

2733
01:32:53,270 --> 01:32:51,760
again i'm being opinionated about you

2734
01:32:55,830 --> 01:32:53,280
now but that's my read of it

2735
01:32:57,910 --> 01:32:55,840
is you're not like throwing up the laser

2736
01:32:59,910 --> 01:32:57,920
defense beams

2737
01:33:01,590 --> 01:32:59,920
you're going hey maybe you know maybe

2738
01:33:04,470 --> 01:33:01,600
not prove it to me more

2739
01:33:05,750 --> 01:33:04,480
and i'm saying the fact that the bribe

2740
01:33:08,950 --> 01:33:05,760
is pro-roman

2741
01:33:11,990 --> 01:33:08,960
the bad the fact that it won hints

2742
01:33:14,470 --> 01:33:12,000
of josephus's fingerprints on it

2743
01:33:16,310 --> 01:33:14,480
through axis of the gospel writers and

2744
01:33:16,790 --> 01:33:16,320
then the fact of like this prophecy that

2745
01:33:18,390 --> 01:33:16,800
has

2746
01:33:20,550 --> 01:33:18,400
three or four elements in it that are

2747
01:33:23,990 --> 01:33:20,560
right out of josephus's history

2748
01:33:25,270 --> 01:33:24,000
again kind of lean me in that direction

2749
01:33:26,629 --> 01:33:25,280
we're in a minute 50 that's the only

2750
01:33:27,510 --> 01:33:26,639
reason i said if we do it again i'd love

2751
01:33:29,910 --> 01:33:27,520
to do it again

2752
01:33:31,110 --> 01:33:29,920
but we're in it we're at an hour 50 so

2753
01:33:32,629 --> 01:33:31,120
that's the only reason i said we might

2754
01:33:34,229 --> 01:33:32,639
have to because we go into depth which

2755
01:33:35,510 --> 01:33:34,239
is what you got to do on this stuff

2756
01:33:37,030 --> 01:33:35,520
what can i respond to that stuff because

2757
01:33:39,750 --> 01:33:37,040
i mean that's of course that's where our

2758
01:33:42,950 --> 01:33:39,760
entire conversation is leading to so

2759
01:33:44,790 --> 01:33:42,960
um i i'm

2760
01:33:46,629 --> 01:33:44,800
i'm not totally tracking with the

2761
01:33:50,070 --> 01:33:46,639
reference to

2762
01:33:53,750 --> 01:33:50,080
the criminals on the cross from josephus

2763
01:33:56,870 --> 01:33:53,760
um i would have to look more closely to

2764
01:34:00,390 --> 01:33:56,880
to understand what that reference is to

2765
01:34:01,910 --> 01:34:00,400
uh the description of jesus in josephus

2766
01:34:04,149 --> 01:34:01,920
from the antiquities

2767
01:34:05,990 --> 01:34:04,159
the one that everybody thinks of as the

2768
01:34:08,229 --> 01:34:06,000
testimonium flavium

2769
01:34:10,390 --> 01:34:08,239
or flavianum i think they say is is

2770
01:34:11,110 --> 01:34:10,400
really pretty ambiguous it's something

2771
01:34:13,270 --> 01:34:11,120
like

2772
01:34:14,629 --> 01:34:13,280
you know jesus was a great guy if indeed

2773
01:34:17,110 --> 01:34:14,639
it's right to call him a guy

2774
01:34:19,030 --> 01:34:17,120
that might be a later interpolation um

2775
01:34:22,629 --> 01:34:19,040
he did

2776
01:34:24,629 --> 01:34:22,639
amazing or surprising deeds and

2777
01:34:26,870 --> 01:34:24,639
some people thought he was the christ

2778
01:34:28,550 --> 01:34:26,880
and he died on the cross

2779
01:34:31,110 --> 01:34:28,560
and i think pilate is specifically

2780
01:34:32,390 --> 01:34:31,120
mentioned there but there's not

2781
01:34:34,870 --> 01:34:32,400
there's there's not any of the

2782
01:34:35,669 --> 01:34:34,880
specificity of the gospels there so if

2783
01:34:37,110 --> 01:34:35,679
you were

2784
01:34:38,629 --> 01:34:37,120
if you're sitting down in the first

2785
01:34:40,629 --> 01:34:38,639
century a.d or if you believe those

2786
01:34:43,270 --> 01:34:40,639
gospels were written much later by

2787
01:34:44,790 --> 01:34:43,280
anonymous authors you know or not the

2788
01:34:45,830 --> 01:34:44,800
authors whose names are attached and

2789
01:34:47,430 --> 01:34:45,840
you're like i'm going to go off of

2790
01:34:49,430 --> 01:34:47,440
josephus

2791
01:34:51,109 --> 01:34:49,440
man you're going to have to build out a

2792
01:34:54,550 --> 01:34:51,119
ton from there because there just

2793
01:34:55,990 --> 01:34:54,560
isn't that much core material so

2794
01:34:57,750 --> 01:34:56,000
matthew is a book that i spend a ton of

2795
01:35:00,149 --> 01:34:57,760
time with and i'm fascinated by it

2796
01:35:02,470 --> 01:35:00,159
because of the cultural intersection of

2797
01:35:03,990 --> 01:35:02,480
romanism and hellenism and judaism and

2798
01:35:04,790 --> 01:35:04,000
the old testament and everything that's

2799
01:35:06,310 --> 01:35:04,800
going on

2800
01:35:08,870 --> 01:35:06,320
and the build-up to what we're talking

2801
01:35:11,270 --> 01:35:08,880
about here with the jewish wars

2802
01:35:12,790 --> 01:35:11,280
finalizing in 70 a.d and i look at the

2803
01:35:16,070 --> 01:35:12,800
gospel of matthew

2804
01:35:19,910 --> 01:35:16,080
and the detail that is included here

2805
01:35:23,109 --> 01:35:19,920
matthew and luke it's just massive

2806
01:35:25,030 --> 01:35:23,119
the detail about what jesus said he's

2807
01:35:27,750 --> 01:35:25,040
having with religious leadership

2808
01:35:29,350 --> 01:35:27,760
his travel itinerary going up north to

2809
01:35:31,030 --> 01:35:29,360
tyre and sidon

2810
01:35:32,629 --> 01:35:31,040
and coming back down and hanging out on

2811
01:35:34,709 --> 01:35:32,639
the east side of the sea of galilee and

2812
01:35:36,470 --> 01:35:34,719
the decapolis and then he goes in a boat

2813
01:35:39,030 --> 01:35:36,480
across the sea to a town nobody even has

2814
01:35:42,709 --> 01:35:39,040
heard of anymore called magaden

2815
01:35:44,950 --> 01:35:42,719
you've got all of these ultra specific

2816
01:35:47,510 --> 01:35:44,960
details throughout the book of matthew

2817
01:35:49,510 --> 01:35:47,520
that it's just a very robust

2818
01:35:50,950 --> 01:35:49,520
document regardless of what you think of

2819
01:35:54,070 --> 01:35:50,960
its origins

2820
01:35:56,229 --> 01:35:54,080
it to to say that that is somehow

2821
01:35:57,270 --> 01:35:56,239
a parallel with josephus or that its

2822
01:36:00,070 --> 01:35:57,280
credibility

2823
01:36:00,310 --> 01:36:00,080
hinges on the the political allegiances

2824
01:36:03,750 --> 01:36:00,320
to

2825
01:36:07,350 --> 01:36:03,760
josephus i i just objectively

2826
01:36:09,430 --> 01:36:07,360
don't see it because of how sweeping

2827
01:36:10,470 --> 01:36:09,440
the account even if we reject it is pure

2828
01:36:12,550 --> 01:36:10,480
fiction

2829
01:36:13,830 --> 01:36:12,560
that matthew for example gives of the

2830
01:36:15,669 --> 01:36:13,840
life of jesus

2831
01:36:17,430 --> 01:36:15,679
and i don't even see a framework there

2832
01:36:19,270 --> 01:36:17,440
as i look at the testimonium

2833
01:36:21,030 --> 01:36:19,280
flavinium i have trouble with it too

2834
01:36:22,550 --> 01:36:21,040
well it's not it's not just

2835
01:36:24,310 --> 01:36:22,560
it's it's not just in the harry potter

2836
01:36:25,910 --> 01:36:24,320
part it's like here is

2837
01:36:27,590 --> 01:36:25,920
here's the part i was referring to

2838
01:36:28,550 --> 01:36:27,600
josephus this is titus goes with

2839
01:36:31,830 --> 01:36:28,560
jerusalem

2840
01:36:32,390 --> 01:36:31,840
so wars 5 12. titus naked without his

2841
01:36:35,430 --> 01:36:32,400
armor

2842
01:36:35,830 --> 01:36:35,440
escapes attack at the garden of uh what

2843
01:36:39,430 --> 01:36:35,840
is that

2844
01:36:39,910 --> 01:36:39,440
geshemaine okay that's right out in

2845
01:36:42,390 --> 01:36:39,920
that's

2846
01:36:43,830 --> 01:36:42,400
parallel right out of the bible right um

2847
01:36:46,390 --> 01:36:43,840
a naked man escapes

2848
01:36:47,030 --> 01:36:46,400
at the garden of gasoline okay so the

2849
01:36:50,870 --> 01:36:47,040
next thing

2850
01:36:52,870 --> 01:36:50,880
in uh yeah that's there's the

2851
01:36:53,990 --> 01:36:52,880
the naked part doesn't drive for me i

2852
01:36:55,910 --> 01:36:54,000
mean it doesn't track

2853
01:36:57,830 --> 01:36:55,920
okay all right so then peter runs out of

2854
01:37:00,709 --> 01:36:57,840
there jesus gets arrested there well

2855
01:37:01,990 --> 01:37:00,719
near there okay right out of wars again

2856
01:37:05,109 --> 01:37:02,000
josephus

2857
01:37:06,390 --> 01:37:05,119
or the jews 5 12. titus builds a siege

2858
01:37:08,709 --> 01:37:06,400
while around jerusalem

2859
01:37:11,109 --> 01:37:08,719
titus pitches camp at jerusalem exactly

2860
01:37:14,229 --> 01:37:11,119
40 years after the start of jesus of

2861
01:37:16,950 --> 01:37:14,239
jesus's ministry supposedly

2862
01:37:17,990 --> 01:37:16,960
so again we're all on board with that

2863
01:37:20,470 --> 01:37:18,000
that that's

2864
01:37:22,709 --> 01:37:20,480
written then as a prophecy right here's

2865
01:37:25,030 --> 01:37:22,719
the next thing from josephus now again

2866
01:37:29,990 --> 01:37:25,040
and this will ring true with the bible

2867
01:37:31,910 --> 01:37:30,000
three men josephus uh 75 4 24 21.

2868
01:37:33,590 --> 01:37:31,920
three men are chris are crucified at the

2869
01:37:36,550 --> 01:37:33,600
village of the inquiring mind

2870
01:37:38,709 --> 01:37:36,560
one man is taken down from the cross uh

2871
01:37:39,910 --> 01:37:38,719
by josephus josephus goes and says hey

2872
01:37:43,510 --> 01:37:39,920
kind of let that guy down

2873
01:37:46,470 --> 01:37:43,520
and it miraculously survives okay so

2874
01:37:48,149 --> 01:37:46,480
we can't get into all of them but this

2875
01:37:50,870 --> 01:37:48,159
is what i was saying

2876
01:37:52,629 --> 01:37:50,880
point by point you go through josephus

2877
01:37:55,990 --> 01:37:52,639
and strangely enough

2878
01:37:58,310 --> 01:37:56,000
these are showing up in the gospels so

2879
01:38:00,229 --> 01:37:58,320
maybe maybe not well not they're showing

2880
01:38:02,070 --> 01:38:00,239
up there's something like it

2881
01:38:03,590 --> 01:38:02,080
that looks similar i mean roman

2882
01:38:05,030 --> 01:38:03,600
executions were happening off and he's

2883
01:38:05,830 --> 01:38:05,040
not calling the person on the cross

2884
01:38:07,669 --> 01:38:05,840
jesus

2885
01:38:09,350 --> 01:38:07,679
it chronologically doesn't align with

2886
01:38:10,390 --> 01:38:09,360
jesus we're talking about decades of

2887
01:38:13,750 --> 01:38:10,400
space

2888
01:38:15,830 --> 01:38:13,760
between it chronologically it depends

2889
01:38:17,590 --> 01:38:15,840
it's in a different time slot right but

2890
01:38:18,870 --> 01:38:17,600
it's like right chronologically these

2891
01:38:19,990 --> 01:38:18,880
things are showing it's not like

2892
01:38:22,870 --> 01:38:20,000
josephus wrote

2893
01:38:23,990 --> 01:38:22,880
i'm not stringing together random quotes

2894
01:38:26,310 --> 01:38:24,000
from josephus

2895
01:38:27,990 --> 01:38:26,320
if you remember and listen to the this

2896
01:38:29,510 --> 01:38:28,000
is like one right after another what

2897
01:38:33,430 --> 01:38:29,520
josephus writes

2898
01:38:36,629 --> 01:38:33,440
it looks to me like again my only point

2899
01:38:40,470 --> 01:38:36,639
is is not that it's uh

2900
01:38:42,149 --> 01:38:40,480
you know stern to stem or writing off of

2901
01:38:43,990 --> 01:38:42,159
josephus

2902
01:38:45,590 --> 01:38:44,000
i'm just saying i'm just saying what a

2903
01:38:49,189 --> 01:38:45,600
lot of biblical scholars say

2904
01:38:50,790 --> 01:38:49,199
is that gee it sure looks like

2905
01:38:52,950 --> 01:38:50,800
the gospel writers had access to

2906
01:38:55,510 --> 01:38:52,960
josephus and

2907
01:38:56,629 --> 01:38:55,520
that once you combine that with what we

2908
01:39:00,070 --> 01:38:56,639
do agree on

2909
01:39:02,070 --> 01:39:00,080
which is that josephus was

2910
01:39:04,470 --> 01:39:02,080
a propaganda agent i don't go with the

2911
01:39:05,990 --> 01:39:04,480
shill you know i go with uh he was

2912
01:39:09,350 --> 01:39:06,000
intentionally trying to

2913
01:39:10,790 --> 01:39:09,360
subvert judaism for political uh reason

2914
01:39:12,790 --> 01:39:10,800
i'm semantically comfortable with that

2915
01:39:13,830 --> 01:39:12,800
distinction sure so so then i think

2916
01:39:15,910 --> 01:39:13,840
we're just in a different

2917
01:39:16,870 --> 01:39:15,920
a different soup you know in a different

2918
01:39:20,550 --> 01:39:16,880
soup in

2919
01:39:23,510 --> 01:39:20,560
understanding all this stuff

2920
01:39:25,270 --> 01:39:23,520
yeah well scope and scale wise i remain

2921
01:39:25,750 --> 01:39:25,280
unpersuaded i think if somebody wants to

2922
01:39:28,310 --> 01:39:25,760
build

2923
01:39:30,709 --> 01:39:28,320
a really strong case against the

2924
01:39:33,990 --> 01:39:30,719
reliability of the gospels

2925
01:39:36,390 --> 01:39:34,000
they're not going to get good traction

2926
01:39:38,070 --> 01:39:36,400
with the josephus angle and when we say

2927
01:39:39,910 --> 01:39:38,080
a lot of scholars

2928
01:39:41,430 --> 01:39:39,920
my guess is that without googling you'd

2929
01:39:43,270 --> 01:39:41,440
struggle to come up with more than one

2930
01:39:45,669 --> 01:39:43,280
name

2931
01:39:46,390 --> 01:39:45,679
without googling yeah i would definitely

2932
01:39:48,470 --> 01:39:46,400
struggle

2933
01:39:50,070 --> 01:39:48,480
okay so and that's that's not an

2934
01:39:51,830 --> 01:39:50,080
indictment of you or your preparation in

2935
01:39:55,350 --> 01:39:51,840
any way my point is

2936
01:39:57,510 --> 01:39:55,360
if you asked for the name of

2937
01:39:59,109 --> 01:39:57,520
25 or 50 scholars who would read it the

2938
01:40:00,470 --> 01:39:59,119
exact opposite way i think i'm ready

2939
01:40:02,390 --> 01:40:00,480
with those names

2940
01:40:03,830 --> 01:40:02,400
now and maybe that's not fair because

2941
01:40:05,669 --> 01:40:03,840
it's what i do for a living in this

2942
01:40:07,510 --> 01:40:05,679
particular narrow tiny little field and

2943
01:40:09,910 --> 01:40:07,520
you're covering a billion things

2944
01:40:11,750 --> 01:40:09,920
but i mean i can just as easily hit that

2945
01:40:13,750 --> 01:40:11,760
tennis ball back and say like well

2946
01:40:14,870 --> 01:40:13,760
i can name a ton of scholars who see

2947
01:40:15,750 --> 01:40:14,880
that differently and are very

2948
01:40:17,590 --> 01:40:15,760
fair-minded

2949
01:40:19,030 --> 01:40:17,600
and well-respected inside and outside of

2950
01:40:21,990 --> 01:40:19,040
religious circles

2951
01:40:23,669 --> 01:40:22,000
so a lot of scholars think it doesn't

2952
01:40:26,950 --> 01:40:23,679
carry a ton of money my source

2953
01:40:31,430 --> 01:40:26,960
my source on that is the ultimate

2954
01:40:34,229 --> 01:40:31,440
truth in the anime wikipedia

2955
01:40:34,790 --> 01:40:34,239
good man good that's a very useful place

2956
01:40:37,109 --> 01:40:34,800
and

2957
01:40:39,109 --> 01:40:37,119
so i think if you want to criticize the

2958
01:40:41,189 --> 01:40:39,119
gospels like hey here's my insider take

2959
01:40:42,950 --> 01:40:41,199
on where the vulnerable points are

2960
01:40:44,149 --> 01:40:42,960
one i think they're reliable i think

2961
01:40:45,830 --> 01:40:44,159
they're written by the people whose

2962
01:40:47,030 --> 01:40:45,840
names are on them i'd love to break all

2963
01:40:48,950 --> 01:40:47,040
that down sometime

2964
01:40:51,189 --> 01:40:48,960
i don't feel a vigorous need to defend

2965
01:40:53,189 --> 01:40:51,199
it but if you want to jab at it jab at

2966
01:40:55,830 --> 01:40:53,199
the fact that formally none of the four

2967
01:40:57,430 --> 01:40:55,840
actually put a name on them so all of

2968
01:40:58,229 --> 01:40:57,440
that has to be ascribed to church

2969
01:40:59,430 --> 01:40:58,239
tradition

2970
01:41:01,510 --> 01:40:59,440
now you want to be careful not to make

2971
01:41:03,189 --> 01:41:01,520
an anachronistic assumption like oh well

2972
01:41:05,510 --> 01:41:03,199
rome was very powerful as a catholic

2973
01:41:07,109 --> 01:41:05,520
church they inflicted those names now

2974
01:41:09,189 --> 01:41:07,119
those names are attached

2975
01:41:10,550 --> 01:41:09,199
way before roman catholicism has any

2976
01:41:13,270 --> 01:41:10,560
kind of traction

2977
01:41:14,709 --> 01:41:13,280
or structure to it to be able to inflict

2978
01:41:17,270 --> 01:41:14,719
that kind of a change

2979
01:41:18,070 --> 01:41:17,280
on a very decentralized distribution of

2980
01:41:20,470 --> 01:41:18,080
these documents

2981
01:41:21,590 --> 01:41:20,480
i mean it's kind of a a blockchain style

2982
01:41:24,629 --> 01:41:21,600
distribution nobody

2983
01:41:26,550 --> 01:41:24,639
owned matthew or luke or john in the

2984
01:41:27,590 --> 01:41:26,560
first few centuries of christianity it

2985
01:41:30,709 --> 01:41:27,600
was just

2986
01:41:31,750 --> 01:41:30,719
distributed and in the ether so to speak

2987
01:41:33,990 --> 01:41:31,760
but

2988
01:41:35,830 --> 01:41:34,000
i mean christians have to admit none of

2989
01:41:36,870 --> 01:41:35,840
those four gospel authors wrote their

2990
01:41:39,270 --> 01:41:36,880
name on the top

2991
01:41:39,910 --> 01:41:39,280
they all give us hints about who wrote

2992
01:41:46,229 --> 01:41:39,920
it

2993
01:41:47,270 --> 01:41:46,239
about this

2994
01:41:49,430 --> 01:41:47,280
i think you can get a little bit of

2995
01:41:51,030 --> 01:41:49,440
purchase in pushing back on some of the

2996
01:41:52,870 --> 01:41:51,040
early manuscript evidence there are a

2997
01:41:56,229 --> 01:41:52,880
couple of key passages there's a

2998
01:41:57,750 --> 01:41:56,239
pericope and then a story in john

2999
01:41:59,350 --> 01:41:57,760
a very famous one about a woman caught

3000
01:42:01,109 --> 01:41:59,360
in adultery well the early manuscript

3001
01:42:02,790 --> 01:42:01,119
evidence doesn't support that

3002
01:42:04,149 --> 01:42:02,800
should that be in there that raises

3003
01:42:05,990 --> 01:42:04,159
questions about

3004
01:42:07,750 --> 01:42:06,000
how the bible unfolded over the years

3005
01:42:10,390 --> 01:42:07,760
i'm very satisfied with the

3006
01:42:11,830 --> 01:42:10,400
critical answers to those questions but

3007
01:42:14,149 --> 01:42:11,840
they're valid questions for the

3008
01:42:15,910 --> 01:42:14,159
skeptical person to push back on and i

3009
01:42:16,629 --> 01:42:15,920
think there's more purchase to be gained

3010
01:42:19,669 --> 01:42:16,639
there

3011
01:42:22,229 --> 01:42:19,679
be gained

3012
01:42:23,030 --> 01:42:22,239
in critiquing the gospels and the new

3013
01:42:24,550 --> 01:42:23,040
testament

3014
01:42:26,310 --> 01:42:24,560
in something i referenced earlier you

3015
01:42:26,870 --> 01:42:26,320
have a couple of historical questions

3016
01:42:29,990 --> 01:42:26,880
that

3017
01:42:32,870 --> 01:42:30,000
look a little quirky uh what's the deal

3018
01:42:35,189 --> 01:42:32,880
with the census with quirinius there are

3019
01:42:36,629 --> 01:42:35,199
historical responses to that but

3020
01:42:38,550 --> 01:42:36,639
i don't find them to be wildly

3021
01:42:40,470 --> 01:42:38,560
satisfactory it's

3022
01:42:41,910 --> 01:42:40,480
it's a valid question for the person

3023
01:42:43,510 --> 01:42:41,920
who's unsure of what to do with those

3024
01:42:44,310 --> 01:42:43,520
are critical of those documents to push

3025
01:42:45,990 --> 01:42:44,320
back on

3026
01:42:47,590 --> 01:42:46,000
you've got the question from acts and

3027
01:42:50,310 --> 01:42:47,600
this theodis fellow

3028
01:42:51,270 --> 01:42:50,320
it looks like theaters and his rebellion

3029
01:42:53,830 --> 01:42:51,280
would have happened

3030
01:42:54,870 --> 01:42:53,840
after that conversation with gamaliel

3031
01:42:56,470 --> 01:42:54,880
would have occurred

3032
01:42:59,350 --> 01:42:56,480
so what gives is there another guy named

3033
01:43:02,149 --> 01:42:59,360
theaters maybe is it a mistake

3034
01:43:03,590 --> 01:43:02,159
i'm inclined to not think so but maybe

3035
01:43:05,590 --> 01:43:03,600
it's a valid question

3036
01:43:07,189 --> 01:43:05,600
at least what's the deal with the two

3037
01:43:09,590 --> 01:43:07,199
accounts of

3038
01:43:10,629 --> 01:43:09,600
what happened to judas it's a valid

3039
01:43:12,790 --> 01:43:10,639
question to ask

3040
01:43:14,149 --> 01:43:12,800
exactly how that went down the timeline

3041
01:43:17,189 --> 01:43:14,159
of the resurrection

3042
01:43:18,550 --> 01:43:17,199
there it's reconcilable but there's

3043
01:43:20,310 --> 01:43:18,560
certainly enough there that any

3044
01:43:21,830 --> 01:43:20,320
honest-minded christian should be able

3045
01:43:23,030 --> 01:43:21,840
to say well that's certainly worth

3046
01:43:25,510 --> 01:43:23,040
considering

3047
01:43:27,430 --> 01:43:25,520
i think a couple of those internal

3048
01:43:29,910 --> 01:43:27,440
points are a place where you can get

3049
01:43:32,070 --> 01:43:29,920
more purchase and i think the manuscript

3050
01:43:34,629 --> 01:43:32,080
evidence though very strong

3051
01:43:36,550 --> 01:43:34,639
for almost all of the new testament does

3052
01:43:38,229 --> 01:43:36,560
leave a couple of vulnerabilities acts 8

3053
01:43:40,470 --> 01:43:38,239
37 being one

3054
01:43:41,590 --> 01:43:40,480
the johannine pericope the final chapter

3055
01:43:44,550 --> 01:43:41,600
of john

3056
01:43:44,950 --> 01:43:44,560
the long ending of mark all of those

3057
01:43:47,510 --> 01:43:44,960
points

3058
01:43:48,950 --> 01:43:47,520
a couple verses in the first third of

3059
01:43:52,149 --> 01:43:48,960
matthew

3060
01:43:53,990 --> 01:43:52,159
you know all of those points there are

3061
01:43:55,830 --> 01:43:54,000
there are good questions to be wrestled

3062
01:43:58,950 --> 01:43:55,840
with there and i think you get

3063
01:44:01,350 --> 01:43:58,960
uh a stronger pushback

3064
01:44:03,510 --> 01:44:01,360
from that than you do by by what i would

3065
01:44:05,430 --> 01:44:03,520
what i think just really is a stretch

3066
01:44:07,590 --> 01:44:05,440
in trying to connect the dots on the

3067
01:44:10,229 --> 01:44:07,600
josephus front what do you mean

3068
01:44:12,070 --> 01:44:10,239
a stretch on the josephus front i mean

3069
01:44:13,510 --> 01:44:12,080
one you already agree

3070
01:44:15,270 --> 01:44:13,520
you've already agreed on the most

3071
01:44:16,870 --> 01:44:15,280
important point that josephus

3072
01:44:19,750 --> 01:44:16,880
has to be understood as a propaganda

3073
01:44:20,550 --> 01:44:19,760
agent and the most important point is

3074
01:44:23,109 --> 01:44:20,560
hold on

3075
01:44:25,189 --> 01:44:23,119
hold up because the the the you know all

3076
01:44:28,470 --> 01:44:25,199
that i kind of boil all that down

3077
01:44:30,470 --> 01:44:28,480
to you know

3078
01:44:32,390 --> 01:44:30,480
do you think what do you think the

3079
01:44:33,189 --> 01:44:32,400
chances are that the gospel writers had

3080
01:44:36,709 --> 01:44:33,199
access to

3081
01:44:39,669 --> 01:44:36,719
josephus uh i think

3082
01:44:41,830 --> 01:44:39,679
a hundred percent that luke had access

3083
01:44:43,109 --> 01:44:41,840
to at least the early publications of

3084
01:44:45,830 --> 01:44:43,119
josephus

3085
01:44:47,189 --> 01:44:45,840
i don't think mark had access i think he

3086
01:44:48,950 --> 01:44:47,199
wrote earlier than that

3087
01:44:51,350 --> 01:44:48,960
and drew his details from peter we've

3088
01:44:53,109 --> 01:44:51,360
got a ton of historical evidence and

3089
01:44:54,870 --> 01:44:53,119
tradition that points to mark

3090
01:44:56,629 --> 01:44:54,880
just writing down peter's teachings in

3091
01:44:58,470 --> 01:44:56,639
rome i think he'd have a tough time

3092
01:44:59,910 --> 01:44:58,480
making a case that mark drew anything

3093
01:45:03,109 --> 01:44:59,920
there

3094
01:45:03,990 --> 01:45:03,119
john i think may have wrote an early

3095
01:45:05,430 --> 01:45:04,000
edition

3096
01:45:07,669 --> 01:45:05,440
and then some questions were left

3097
01:45:09,750 --> 01:45:07,679
lingering and maybe he came back

3098
01:45:11,590 --> 01:45:09,760
later to round things out answering the

3099
01:45:13,510 --> 01:45:11,600
question of what happened with peter

3100
01:45:15,030 --> 01:45:13,520
things like that in that final chapter

3101
01:45:17,430 --> 01:45:15,040
so john

3102
01:45:19,109 --> 01:45:17,440
would have had access at least by the

3103
01:45:19,590 --> 01:45:19,119
time we get to the finished version of

3104
01:45:21,030 --> 01:45:19,600
john

3105
01:45:22,310 --> 01:45:21,040
and maybe there is no finished version

3106
01:45:23,910 --> 01:45:22,320
maybe it was all just one version i

3107
01:45:25,510 --> 01:45:23,920
don't know i'm just speculating

3108
01:45:27,270 --> 01:45:25,520
matthew there's more debate about the

3109
01:45:30,629 --> 01:45:27,280
early church father who lived

3110
01:45:32,149 --> 01:45:30,639
in close proximity papias suggests that

3111
01:45:34,470 --> 01:45:32,159
matthew was actually the first to write

3112
01:45:37,510 --> 01:45:34,480
his gospel modern scholarship

3113
01:45:39,669 --> 01:45:37,520
supposes that mark wrote first but

3114
01:45:41,109 --> 01:45:39,679
if that's the case then matthew if

3115
01:45:42,870 --> 01:45:41,119
papias is right

3116
01:45:44,550 --> 01:45:42,880
matthew didn't have access to josephus

3117
01:45:45,750 --> 01:45:44,560
because josephus was still wet behind

3118
01:45:47,030 --> 01:45:45,760
the ears and a kid

3119
01:45:49,350 --> 01:45:47,040
and hadn't published anything when

3120
01:45:51,189 --> 01:45:49,360
matthew was doing the bulk of his work

3121
01:45:53,430 --> 01:45:51,199
if we go with the more traditional

3122
01:45:56,229 --> 01:45:53,440
slightly later date for matthew

3123
01:45:58,070 --> 01:45:56,239
he would have barely had access to

3124
01:46:01,590 --> 01:45:58,080
josephus and if we go with the much

3125
01:46:03,189 --> 01:46:01,600
more uh skeptical and traditionally it's

3126
01:46:05,109 --> 01:46:03,199
called the more liberal read

3127
01:46:06,470 --> 01:46:05,119
on the dating of matthew than he would

3128
01:46:09,910 --> 01:46:06,480
have had access

3129
01:46:11,189 --> 01:46:09,920
so sure i think they had access i just

3130
01:46:13,510 --> 01:46:11,199
don't see

3131
01:46:14,790 --> 01:46:13,520
the correspondence happening to such a

3132
01:46:17,510 --> 01:46:14,800
degree

3133
01:46:18,470 --> 01:46:17,520
that that it's in any way historically

3134
01:46:22,629 --> 01:46:18,480
compelling

3135
01:46:24,790 --> 01:46:22,639
are you at all surprised curious

3136
01:46:26,790 --> 01:46:24,800
about the bible being as pro-roman as it

3137
01:46:30,229 --> 01:46:26,800
is

3138
01:46:33,430 --> 01:46:30,239
are those are those the fingerprints of

3139
01:46:35,830 --> 01:46:33,440
josephus no

3140
01:46:37,669 --> 01:46:35,840
i'm well maybe i have to say maybe again

3141
01:46:40,870 --> 01:46:37,679
because i didn't write this i don't know

3142
01:46:44,870 --> 01:46:40,880
but based on what i see

3143
01:46:46,470 --> 01:46:44,880
the the orientation one strategy for how

3144
01:46:47,910 --> 01:46:46,480
to deal with rome in the situation at

3145
01:46:50,629 --> 01:46:47,920
hand amongst jews

3146
01:46:51,669 --> 01:46:50,639
amongst gentiles amongst hellenizers

3147
01:46:54,709 --> 01:46:51,679
amongst

3148
01:46:57,830 --> 01:46:54,719
christians

3149
01:46:59,109 --> 01:46:57,840
was play along use the roman

3150
01:47:02,229 --> 01:46:59,119
infrastructure

3151
01:47:04,550 --> 01:47:02,239
play along and don't pick a fight

3152
01:47:06,470 --> 01:47:04,560
because you're going to lose the fight

3153
01:47:08,709 --> 01:47:06,480
some people retreated some people wanted

3154
01:47:10,950 --> 01:47:08,719
to fight some people chose this route

3155
01:47:12,470 --> 01:47:10,960
to me the book of romans which is

3156
01:47:15,109 --> 01:47:12,480
written by paul

3157
01:47:17,109 --> 01:47:15,119
to the church in rome or male would have

3158
01:47:18,629 --> 01:47:17,119
been even sifted through potentially

3159
01:47:20,870 --> 01:47:18,639
especially the very controversial

3160
01:47:23,189 --> 01:47:20,880
chapter 13 of romans

3161
01:47:25,990 --> 01:47:23,199
it looks like it's being written with an

3162
01:47:31,030 --> 01:47:29,510
anonymously persuade or make nice

3163
01:47:33,910 --> 01:47:31,040
now i don't think it's far-fetched at

3164
01:47:35,750 --> 01:47:33,920
all to imagine that josephus

3165
01:47:37,590 --> 01:47:35,760
and the apostle paul who had no

3166
01:47:39,750 --> 01:47:37,600
influence on each other

3167
01:47:40,950 --> 01:47:39,760
both would have looked at the playing

3168
01:47:42,310 --> 01:47:40,960
field and said

3169
01:47:44,149 --> 01:47:42,320
well there's no point in jabbing that

3170
01:47:44,870 --> 01:47:44,159
bear the right play would be to do it

3171
01:47:46,790 --> 01:47:44,880
this way

3172
01:47:48,229 --> 01:47:46,800
now there are people i completely agree

3173
01:47:51,830 --> 01:47:48,239
with right now

3174
01:47:53,270 --> 01:47:51,840
who um or completely disagree with right

3175
01:47:54,470 --> 01:47:53,280
now who look at the situation in

3176
01:47:57,750 --> 01:47:54,480
american government

3177
01:47:59,750 --> 01:47:57,760
or the situation in uh people

3178
01:48:01,510 --> 01:47:59,760
cracking down on any kind of creative

3179
01:48:03,109 --> 01:48:01,520
speech on the internet

3180
01:48:04,470 --> 01:48:03,119
and maybe for completely different

3181
01:48:05,910 --> 01:48:04,480
reasons we would say i don't like that

3182
01:48:07,189 --> 01:48:05,920
and i want to push back on that but

3183
01:48:10,790 --> 01:48:07,199
right now it would be best

3184
01:48:13,030 --> 01:48:10,800
to appease so i won't crack this joke

3185
01:48:15,030 --> 01:48:13,040
i won't deal with that subject matter

3186
01:48:16,550 --> 01:48:15,040
i'm not looking to jab that bear and

3187
01:48:17,990 --> 01:48:16,560
pick a fight now we might not know each

3188
01:48:20,070 --> 01:48:18,000
other we might not influence each

3189
01:48:21,510 --> 01:48:20,080
other but if we're both people of common

3190
01:48:22,870 --> 01:48:21,520
sense we might look at the same playing

3191
01:48:24,310 --> 01:48:22,880
field and say this is probably the right

3192
01:48:27,590 --> 01:48:24,320
way to play it at the moment

3193
01:48:29,910 --> 01:48:27,600
so is it possible that that pro-roman

3194
01:48:31,669 --> 01:48:29,920
play-along mentality is something that

3195
01:48:31,990 --> 01:48:31,679
josephus informed the bible and the

3196
01:48:35,430 --> 01:48:32,000
bible

3197
01:48:37,590 --> 01:48:35,440
informed josephus i mean it could be

3198
01:48:38,950 --> 01:48:37,600
but statistically just in terms of how

3199
01:48:40,229 --> 01:48:38,960
many humans were on the earth and how

3200
01:48:42,550 --> 01:48:40,239
much they interacted

3201
01:48:44,070 --> 01:48:42,560
it seems more likely that those are two

3202
01:48:46,229 --> 01:48:44,080
relatively sophisticated

3203
01:48:47,350 --> 01:48:46,239
shrewd groups of people who read the

3204
01:48:49,189 --> 01:48:47,360
playing field and said this would

3205
01:48:52,310 --> 01:48:49,199
probably be the best way to play it

3206
01:48:55,830 --> 01:48:52,320
pro-romanism in the roman empire

3207
01:48:57,910 --> 01:48:55,840
is in and of itself no evidence of

3208
01:48:59,590 --> 01:48:57,920
collaboration or corroboration between

3209
01:49:02,790 --> 01:48:59,600
two sources

3210
01:49:06,070 --> 01:49:02,800
it was the status quo matt

3211
01:49:09,750 --> 01:49:06,080
you are fantastic i love you

3212
01:49:12,709 --> 01:49:09,760
buddy what's going on what's going on

3213
01:49:14,390 --> 01:49:12,719
you know i never even asked you this 10

3214
01:49:16,790 --> 01:49:14,400
minute bible hour that's such a

3215
01:49:17,750 --> 01:49:16,800
it's such a little riddle right there

3216
01:49:20,149 --> 01:49:17,760
it's 10 minutes it's

3217
01:49:21,589 --> 01:49:20,159
never it's an hour and then it's never

3218
01:49:23,430 --> 01:49:21,599
even an hour so

3219
01:49:25,750 --> 01:49:23,440
but what's going on at the 10 minute

3220
01:49:26,550 --> 01:49:25,760
bible hour what what can people expect

3221
01:49:28,470 --> 01:49:26,560
and find out

3222
01:49:30,870 --> 01:49:28,480
and what are you doing where can they go

3223
01:49:33,430 --> 01:49:30,880
and see you i think you do you do

3224
01:49:35,270 --> 01:49:33,440
do you get out there and beat the bushes

3225
01:49:37,669 --> 01:49:35,280
and give presentations sometimes

3226
01:49:39,830 --> 01:49:37,679
yeah i've got i got more of that coming

3227
01:49:40,070 --> 01:49:39,840
up starting this summer and fall i mean

3228
01:49:47,270 --> 01:49:40,080
i

3229
01:49:49,589 --> 01:49:47,280
started about

3230
01:49:51,189 --> 01:49:49,599
six years ago because i wanted to have a

3231
01:49:52,950 --> 01:49:51,199
different sounding conversation

3232
01:49:54,790 --> 01:49:52,960
about the bible and church history and

3233
01:49:57,030 --> 01:49:54,800
christianity and all of those things

3234
01:49:59,750 --> 01:49:57,040
philosophy morality

3235
01:50:01,270 --> 01:49:59,760
um i tried to pick a goofy name that was

3236
01:50:04,470 --> 01:50:01,280
a bit of a self-riff

3237
01:50:05,990 --> 01:50:04,480
i'm not sure i got it right um that joke

3238
01:50:07,750 --> 01:50:06,000
slays with people who used to listen to

3239
01:50:09,189 --> 01:50:07,760
old tiny bible radio stuff

3240
01:50:10,390 --> 01:50:09,199
everything was the bible hour and i was

3241
01:50:11,430 --> 01:50:10,400
like well i'll just do it faster and

3242
01:50:14,629 --> 01:50:11,440
quirkier

3243
01:50:15,910 --> 01:50:14,639
uh the tone of the show is

3244
01:50:17,990 --> 01:50:15,920
hopefully it's we get into the deep

3245
01:50:19,189 --> 01:50:18,000
water we respect the time of the viewer

3246
01:50:21,189 --> 01:50:19,199
or the listener

3247
01:50:22,870 --> 01:50:21,199
but also we screw around like it's it's

3248
01:50:25,350 --> 01:50:22,880
the bible and also fart jokes

3249
01:50:26,629 --> 01:50:25,360
it just i want to take a thing that we

3250
01:50:27,910 --> 01:50:26,639
all want to fight about and that makes

3251
01:50:29,430 --> 01:50:27,920
people on edge

3252
01:50:31,109 --> 01:50:29,440
and i want to emulate the tone of this

3253
01:50:32,310 --> 01:50:31,119
conversation with people of goodwill

3254
01:50:33,189 --> 01:50:32,320
people who can have a laugh about

3255
01:50:35,109 --> 01:50:33,199
something

3256
01:50:36,470 --> 01:50:35,119
people who like picking up a thing and

3257
01:50:37,830 --> 01:50:36,480
looking at it from a bunch of different

3258
01:50:39,589 --> 01:50:37,840
angles at the end of the day

3259
01:50:41,270 --> 01:50:39,599
just like we're about to do yeah i might

3260
01:50:42,709 --> 01:50:41,280
not see it the same way high five what a

3261
01:50:45,430 --> 01:50:42,719
blast this was

3262
01:50:46,390 --> 01:50:45,440
and so that's the tone of the show if

3263
01:50:47,990 --> 01:50:46,400
you're looking for

3264
01:50:49,910 --> 01:50:48,000
something that is quick and punchy and

3265
01:50:51,430 --> 01:50:49,920
fun where i don't presume to tell you

3266
01:50:52,950 --> 01:50:51,440
what to do or how to be

3267
01:50:54,470 --> 01:50:52,960
but i'm happy to think through ideas

3268
01:50:56,629 --> 01:50:54,480
with you i think you'll like

3269
01:50:58,790 --> 01:50:56,639
my youtube channel i go around i visit

3270
01:51:00,950 --> 01:50:58,800
other expressions of christianity

3271
01:51:02,709 --> 01:51:00,960
i point at things in fancy churches and

3272
01:51:03,669 --> 01:51:02,719
ask the priests what that means why they

3273
01:51:05,589 --> 01:51:03,679
wear that outfit

3274
01:51:06,950 --> 01:51:05,599
what do you do there and how does this

3275
01:51:08,790 --> 01:51:06,960
work what do you believe

3276
01:51:10,709 --> 01:51:08,800
and we have a really good time with it i

3277
01:51:14,390 --> 01:51:10,719
walk through books of the bible

3278
01:51:17,830 --> 01:51:14,400
in sort of a lighthearted but deep divey

3279
01:51:21,109 --> 01:51:17,840
daily show style format

3280
01:51:22,629 --> 01:51:21,119
um and then the daily podcast is

3281
01:51:24,310 --> 01:51:22,639
completely separate from the youtube

3282
01:51:26,390 --> 01:51:24,320
channel i was just describing

3283
01:51:27,910 --> 01:51:26,400
the daily podcast is straight through

3284
01:51:31,430 --> 01:51:27,920
the book of matthew

3285
01:51:32,950 --> 01:51:31,440
in finite detail i mean

3286
01:51:35,109 --> 01:51:32,960
we talk about historical context

3287
01:51:37,430 --> 01:51:35,119
literary context josephus comes up

3288
01:51:39,669 --> 01:51:37,440
all the time we're talking about roman

3289
01:51:41,830 --> 01:51:39,679
politics we're talking about hasmonean

3290
01:51:43,270 --> 01:51:41,840
politics the end of that dynasty

3291
01:51:45,270 --> 01:51:43,280
all of these cultural assumptions

3292
01:51:47,750 --> 01:51:45,280
historical theological philosophical

3293
01:51:50,149 --> 01:51:47,760
assumptions going on behind the text

3294
01:51:51,430 --> 01:51:50,159
we're trying to get into that and a huge

3295
01:51:53,109 --> 01:51:51,440
percentage of that audience

3296
01:51:54,870 --> 01:51:53,119
are people who don't believe anything

3297
01:51:56,870 --> 01:51:54,880
like what i believe but

3298
01:51:58,070 --> 01:51:56,880
we just enjoy kicking it around together

3299
01:52:00,229 --> 01:51:58,080
it's 10 minutes a day

3300
01:52:01,589 --> 01:52:00,239
every weekday it's there in the morning

3301
01:52:04,870 --> 01:52:01,599
people work out with it

3302
01:52:06,550 --> 01:52:04,880
commute with it and um and i have a

3303
01:52:07,189 --> 01:52:06,560
blast with it and thank you for letting

3304
01:52:10,550 --> 01:52:07,199
me

3305
01:52:12,870 --> 01:52:10,560
stuff oh absolutely

3306
01:52:14,229 --> 01:52:12,880
do check it out folks and uh even if

3307
01:52:16,229 --> 01:52:14,239
you're not

3308
01:52:17,350 --> 01:52:16,239
totally down with the christians a lot

3309
01:52:18,149 --> 01:52:17,360
of people listen to the show who are

3310
01:52:20,070 --> 01:52:18,159
christian

3311
01:52:21,189 --> 01:52:20,080
and they really let me hear it every

3312
01:52:24,070 --> 01:52:21,199
time i do one of these shows

3313
01:52:24,950 --> 01:52:24,080
be good to him my friends because yes

3314
01:52:26,629 --> 01:52:24,960
peace here

3315
01:52:29,990 --> 01:52:26,639
let's hear that i can make him say it

3316
01:52:32,870 --> 01:52:30,000
again but you know also even if you are

3317
01:52:33,430 --> 01:52:32,880
it's it's such a it's very rich in

3318
01:52:35,910 --> 01:52:33,440
content

3319
01:52:36,550 --> 01:52:35,920
it's super well produced very very

3320
01:52:39,189 --> 01:52:36,560
watchable

3321
01:52:40,870 --> 01:52:39,199
listenable so it's been fantastic

3322
01:52:42,830 --> 01:52:40,880
getting to know you matt uh

3323
01:52:45,350 --> 01:52:42,840
thanks again so much for coming on

3324
01:52:46,310 --> 01:52:45,360
skeptico likewise what a blast thank you

3325
01:52:48,149 --> 01:52:46,320
alex

3326
01:52:49,750 --> 01:52:48,159
thanks again to matthew whitman from the

3327
01:52:52,470 --> 01:52:49,760
10 minute bible hour

3328
01:52:53,910 --> 01:52:52,480
for joining me today on skeptico so many

3329
01:52:55,109 --> 01:52:53,920
questions i could tee up from this

3330
01:52:58,629 --> 01:52:55,119
interview but i'm going to go

3331
01:53:00,470 --> 01:52:58,639
real specific bible geeky

3332
01:53:03,030 --> 01:53:00,480
do you think jesus met with pontius

3333
01:53:04,629 --> 01:53:03,040
pilate and do you think because

3334
01:53:06,149 --> 01:53:04,639
we didn't really hash this out but i

3335
01:53:09,109 --> 01:53:06,159
think there's kind of an interesting

3336
01:53:11,189 --> 01:53:09,119
argument here if you think jesus met

3337
01:53:13,669 --> 01:53:11,199
with pontius pilate

3338
01:53:15,270 --> 01:53:13,679
and josephus didn't document it in war

3339
01:53:17,109 --> 01:53:15,280
of the jews

3340
01:53:19,030 --> 01:53:17,119
and at the same time you think the

3341
01:53:21,750 --> 01:53:19,040
testimonium flavianum

3342
01:53:22,629 --> 01:53:21,760
that is the writing by josephus where he

3343
01:53:24,629 --> 01:53:22,639
says

3344
01:53:26,070 --> 01:53:24,639
wow this jesus guy if you can even call

3345
01:53:27,990 --> 01:53:26,080
him a guy he was so great

3346
01:53:30,229 --> 01:53:28,000
that is written down in josephus's

3347
01:53:31,350 --> 01:53:30,239
second bestseller antiquities that comes

3348
01:53:34,310 --> 01:53:31,360
a lot of years later

3349
01:53:35,189 --> 01:53:34,320
well if you think that passage is

3350
01:53:37,430 --> 01:53:35,199
authentic

3351
01:53:40,550 --> 01:53:37,440
which kind of matt is arguing that at

3352
01:53:42,229 --> 01:53:40,560
least part of it is the spirit of it is

3353
01:53:44,390 --> 01:53:42,239
i would suggest that you really have a

3354
01:53:47,510 --> 01:53:44,400
hard time reconciling

3355
01:53:50,709 --> 01:53:47,520
those two points those two

3356
01:53:52,149 --> 01:53:50,719
places in history right so if he wrote

3357
01:53:58,629 --> 01:53:52,159
about it

3358
01:53:59,990 --> 01:53:58,639
when he wrote war of the jews so why

3359
01:54:01,830 --> 01:54:00,000
didn't he write about it

3360
01:54:03,109 --> 01:54:01,840
when he was writing about pontius

3361
01:54:06,470 --> 01:54:03,119
pilate's other

3362
01:54:09,830 --> 01:54:06,480
exploits now again i know that's

3363
01:54:10,149 --> 01:54:09,840
bible geeky and it's almost might seem

3364
01:54:13,350 --> 01:54:10,159
like

3365
01:54:16,390 --> 01:54:13,360
overkill but this is the beginning

3366
01:54:17,510 --> 01:54:16,400
of digging that next level deeper to

3367
01:54:21,189 --> 01:54:17,520
where we can

3368
01:54:22,070 --> 01:54:21,199
have some degree of confidence with what

3369
01:54:26,229 --> 01:54:22,080
we're saying

3370
01:54:27,430 --> 01:54:26,239
about how all this came into being

3371
01:54:29,430 --> 01:54:27,440
because you know where i'm going with

3372
01:54:31,109 --> 01:54:29,440
that i think it's all about social

3373
01:54:31,669 --> 01:54:31,119
engineering by the romans but that's

3374
01:54:34,790 --> 01:54:31,679
what i'm

3375
01:54:36,149 --> 01:54:34,800
building up to i can't close the book on

3376
01:54:37,990 --> 01:54:36,159
it yet

3377
01:54:39,510 --> 01:54:38,000
so let me know what you think love love

3378
01:54:41,430 --> 01:54:39,520
love to hear the feedback let's hear the

3379
01:54:42,070 --> 01:54:41,440
comments hear what your thoughts are on

3380
01:54:43,669 --> 01:54:42,080
that

3381
01:54:45,910 --> 01:54:43,679
track me down come over the skeptical

3382
01:54:47,990 --> 01:54:45,920
forum track me down any way you like

3383
01:54:49,990 --> 01:54:48,000
and then please stay with me for more of

3384
01:54:54,920 --> 01:54:50,000
this there's plenty more to come

3385
01:55:02,830 --> 01:54:54,930
until next time take care and bye for